• Digital recording of the groups can be hampered by wind noise. Makeshift windscreen cut down on much of the wind noise, and placing the recording in a basket reduced much of the wind noise. The recorders need to be kept away from the note taker/typist to avoid audible clicking.

• For meaning checking conversation, first asking the group about their feelings about Flight 93 and the Memorial and then introducing the themes for discussion seemed to allow the visitors to engage more easily and deeply in the conversation.

• Debriefs benefited from the “PDQ” format, where team members noted Patterns, Details, and lingering Questions after each conversation.

• After experimenting with different tent locations, it was unclear what effect that had on recruitment. The tent positions were workable. The tents should not be too close to the actual memorial or to the Ambassador presentation but should be on the path from the memorial to the parking areas. The tents might even be placed in the parking lot.

• Informational packets, announcements, and/or  signage in the form of a banner that says: “ Share your thoughts on Flight 93” might also assist the volunteer recruitment process.

• Uniformed park rangers should be used to assist in recruiting volunteers. The “inviter” to the conversation groups needs to be a separate role.

• Ambassador presentations which all group participants heard prior to group assignments are likely to influence group content and this should be tested in later trials perhaps by also recording each ambassador presentation as well as randomizing the sequence of presentations with participation in groups  (in some cases ambassador presentation follows group participation). Perhaps having a Conversation Circles team member  present at each Ambassador presentation could provide for another reliability measure.

• The Conversation Circles team has to be prepared for the weather conditions: temperature, wind, blowing dust. There is no shade or shelter at the memorial site so data collection will be impossible in bad weather conditions.

• During conversation groups sunglasses should not be worn, brims of hats should be turned up, facial expressions should be open and positive, affirming or judgmental responses should be avoided.

• It might be useful to consider adding some standard prompts to the instructions for the meaning making conversations circles such as: What might that mean? Can you explain that further?

• Perhaps debrief discussions could be recorded and transcribed for future reference. It might also be prudent leave a bit more time between conversations for more lengthy debriefs.

Program:  Flight 93 Site:  Shanksville, PA

Interviewee Name(s), Organization/Agency, Position:  d

Interview Date, Time, Location: 03/27/07, 8:00 a.m., Shanksville, PA

Interviewer: Michael Duffin

Transcriber: Liza Lowe Transcription Date: 03/16/08

File Name:  93 Meaning Mtg Ambass MD 03-27-07            Duration: 34m 29s

MD:  Michael Duffin

FA:  Focus Group of Flight 93 Ambassadors

MD:  So it’s Tuesday, March 27th at 8:00 here in Shanksville, Pennsylvania and we have Shirley, Alice Jean, Emily, Kathy, Carl, Dave, Sam and Michael. This is a conversation, these are our guiding questions. So, let’s just launch right in. What is it about this place and about Flight 93 that makes the Ambassador Program so important? And anybody can just jump right in, it’s just a conversation.

FA:  Well I think we give a human element to the story. Like if people would just be there and look around nobody would be there to give it a voice or to give a voice from the people that were on the plane. We have to explain things and help people understand.

FA:  People do say when they come that they’re so glad somebody is there to tell them what actually happened because if we weren’t there all they would see is field and it would have no meaning to them.

FA:  Often times the people that come there had things happen to them that they just need, feel like they need to talk to somebody about it and it’s important to them to have somebody there to listen. If you want to get into a long conversation just ask them, “Well where were you?”  “What happened to you that day?”  And you’ll have a, they’ll go on for a long time ‘cause it’s a significant emotional event to so many people and people feel like they need to talk about it.

FA:  Everybody knows, everybody remembers where they were on September 11th, 2001.

FA:  But you get those stories more on the week days when there’s fewer people because I’ve been working Monday through the winter and normally I did Saturdays and you don’t hear what people have to say on Saturdays as much when there’s more… on the weekends there’s a bigger crowd and people are more inhibited then. They don’t really feel like they can talk as openly in a large crowd. And there you have the more time to spend with them.

FA:  I like that one to one. It’s more personal.

FA:  If you’re there on a last shift, the last person who’s there stays forever and you just keep talking to them and the sun goes down, it gets dark and sometimes they go out and turn on their car and pull it around and turn the head lights on to shine it on the Memorial so we can just keep going.

FA:  It’s usually nicer working through the week than on the weekend because you do have more time to talk to the people. And to us, I think I speak for everybody, it’s more interesting to hear from other people than it is just to be up there saying, over and over the same basic facts and not being able to relate to the people.

MD:  So there’s different layers of what you, of the conversations that you folks have. Is that what you’re saying?

FA:  Yes. I’m kind of surprised that people who do not live around here do not know really what happened at all with Flight 93. I was really surprised that people don’t have much knowledge of it. They know it happened, but that’s it. They don’t, they don’t know the intricate details of what happened and when you do get into that they’re spell-bound. They just want more and more and it’s up to us to decide how far you really want to go with it.

MD:  How do you figure that out? As ambassadors how do you manage that conversation about how far to go and what direction and how much listening?

FA:  You kind of let them ask questions and you just pick up on more and more and let them follow. I kind of let them follow and they just keep on asking questions and a little bit deeper and deeper and depending on how far they want to go.

FA:  You can kind of tell by their body language too. Like, like some people it’s like, it’s too much for them and you can tell. Like one guy actually left the building when I was talking with his wife because he had been a prisoner who had been captured during World War II and he couldn’t handle it. So, and like sometimes it’s, people get real ancy and then you know you can’t go into any more detail or you shouldn’t. You know? Or just keep it general.

MD:  Are there particular elements in the place that make your job as ambassadors more difficult or flow better?

FA:  What do you mean?

MD:  I’m not exactly sure, I’m just trying to figure out you know, what separates like if this had been at a different place, would the story be different or your role as telling that story be different?

FA:  Oh I’m sure because we was here first-hand when it happened and saw the debris that blew over my house and we was up there the first night when CNN and Fox moved in and the temporary memorial started right there. The Cross showed up and somebody was here right from the beginning. I know I was heading into church one morning and a gentlemen from KDK news stopped me and he asked me about the community. And I said, “I felt that every community in America responded the same way.”  And he said, “No that’s not true.”

FA:  That fact that it’s so far removed, you asked about the site, since it’s so far removed from other distractions I think helps. You don’t have, other than the traffic to the site, you don’t have… it’s not right next to a major highway. There’s not as much distractions and the fact that it’s not developed, it’s sort of a peaceful background. It gives more people more time to think about what happened and to relate to it. That, I think, is one of the worse things that could happen to the site is, if you get too many distractions.

FA:  I agree with Dave on that. It’s just so quiet and serene that the site, it just opens up for the interpretation of the story. It doesn’t take over and it’s serene and sometimes it’s stark and it just seems to…  Anybody who comes here that really cares, it just seems to give them whatever they need. No more, no less.

FA:  It’s sort of, to me it’s like the difference between watching a movie and reading a book. When you read the book you build the story relating to your own life experiences, but in the movie the producer shows you what it relates to them and you don’t have as much interpretation to how it, or be able to relate as much to your own life experiences. It’s sort of that type of difference.

MD:  So you folks were all, you know here, when this happened? I, you know as an outsider coming in, I really have no idea what that would be like. To be so close to something like this.

FA:  Well I was teaching that day and as the day unfolded the kids, fifth grade, were getting scared of course. And I said, well we don’t have to worry. We live far enough away. When you go home tonight your moms and dads will be there, your house will be there, you’ll be safe. So when another teacher came around I went out to the hall to say that the plane came down in Shanksville, it was like – this is impossible. It can’t be happening. You know? So I don’t know if other small communities felt that same – it can’t happen in small-town America, it’s gotta happen in cities. And, I don’t know, that just was, I mean I was, I wasn’t at Shanksville, but I was in the area and I think the fact that it happened in such an isolate, quiet place made it even more devastating, at least to people here. I mean, did you think about that? That it happened in this small, barren town?

MD:  Oh I totally did. It’s like, that could be anywhere.

FA:  Yea I often, you know when I’m speaking to people, will tell them, when this plane came down it brought home the fact that terrorists can effect people anywhere. You don’t have to be in the city. It definitely effected us because it was so close and maybe I’m reading more into than I should be, that it affected everybody in the world that way or other small areas. That that was my take on it. That when this one came down in the middle of relatively nowhere it brought home to other people that it, we’re not immune to all the things that are going on elsewhere in the world. It does affect all these little places.

FA:  That we’re all in danger really.

MD:  How is Shanksville different? I mean it’s gotta be just hugely different. I mean, it’s a simple, you know maybe it’s a naïve question on some level, but I mean, what are the details of… how is this community different? How has it been affected?

FA: You mean by Flight 93?

MD:  Yea.

FA:  I have a little theory that goes something like this – there are people that wish the plane had never crashed and they wish it would all go away. And then there are the people that wish the plane had never crashed and have decided to be care takers and to help shape what happens to this community because the plane crashed. I don’t know if I’ve oversimplified that, I probably have really oversimplified that, but that’s the way I think of it.

FA:  Nice job. Yea, I like that because that’s the way I think people around here, us right here, we’re the group that cares and we want to be ambassadors. We want to tell everyone what happened. There’s another part of the community that wishes it would go away. They don’t know anything about anything and they don’t want to know about anything. There’s just… that’s the way, I mean I know… I know that from talking to people. They don’t care. They just don’t care.

MD:  How do you deal with that? What does that, what does that do to a community?

FA:  I think that there’s kind of a, I mean first of all it’s a small community where almost everybody knows almost everybody and almost everybody is related to almost everybody in one way or another and there’s a cultural cohesiveness here. We’re almost all, you know, Anglo-Saxon descent, protestants that it’s just, it’s not enough to tear the community apart. We have, you know, there are those two groups that Kathy spoke of and we just agree to peacefully co-exist and then go on with our lives and interact with each other same as always in other aspects of our lives.

FA:  There’s enough common ground because of our background. I think most of us have our families have lived in this area for generations. You know so that, we have…  You can say oh, they’re so and so from a certain family. Oh yea, we know that family.

FA:  It’s like someone last week said to me, “Well I guess that Flight 93 thing is going to go away now.”  I mean they are hoping that this is gone. And I think, well no I don’t think so, but I didn’t argue with her. I don’t think so, but they really are anti-this, what we’re doing.

FA:  I have lots of friends that I get along with great that think that the park is a complete waste of money. They think they should just, you know, buy five acres where the plane hit and call it a job. Like I say, we agree to disagree and then peacefully co-exist and we continue to interact.

FA:  That’s the one thing about a small community. You can’t just ignore anybody because they are part of the community. So you have to learn how to get along even though you have disagreements. You don’t just say, you hate that person or you go really antagonistic because you have to go and live with them because there are so many interrelationships and so many different groups and the way that they’re tied together that you just can’t ignore them or totally not get along. It forces you to sometimes overlook differences.

MD:  From your personal perspective, as personal as you’re willing to be, how would you describe the spirit of the place?

FA:  It’s overwhelming. Every time I go there it’s overwhelming. It just is. There’s something about it.

FA:  I wear sunglasses just about year round so that I, just to, it’s the way I get through talking about it for two or two and a half hours up there with people because I still find that I’m so touched by the story. Isn’t that silly?

FA:  No. As you speak sometimes your voice cracks and then you can tell that the audience feels just like you do.

FA:  Especially if somebody’s made eye contact with you that you know is really feeling that way. That’s especially… we always keep Kleenexes there.

FA:  And these big, burly guys. They really always make me cry. You know?

FA:  You’d be totally amazed at the number of times I end up exchanging hugs with visitors and they’re helping us as much as we’re helping them.

MD:  So it’s a helping thing going on. It’s a healing.

FA:  I feel more healed since I’ve become an ambassador. I’ve only done it since July, but I would bring people to the site (relatives and friends). I would just cry and feel so helpless and hopeless. But now since I’ve been able to tell the story and honor the heroes, I feel like I’ve healed more.

MD:  In the last year?

FA:  Yea. Especially since I’ve worked Mondays through the winter. Right before I just did Saturdays and it was more like, oh I don’t know, just telling the story.

FA:  You’re a tour guide repeating the facts instead of being a part of the people that came.

MD:  What allows that healing and helping to happen? And what gets in the way of it?

FA:  If you’re, tying into like the difference between during the week and the weekend. If you’re somehow able to break the groups into smaller groups to where the people feel like they can feel comfortable with relating their experiences – that would help.

FA:  Yea, not every group comes there for that. Some are just, you know, more into the cold facts and some people are like disaster freaks that just get-off on the magnitude of destruction and stuff like that. There’s some people like that and it’s not hard to tell who they are. Whenever it gets down to three or four people with you, then the conversation almost always gets pretty intimate.

FA:  And when you’re there through the week, even though you may only have twenty-four people in that time period, usually one group doesn’t leave until another group comes. They’ll stay and talk as long as you’re there. But, you know, on Saturdays they’ll come and they’ll look around and they’ll listen to your talk and then they’ll go is what I’ve noticed.

FA:  Because they feel there’s so many other people they feel like they need to get out of the way so other people can hear.

FA:  I think children, when they come, it’s amazing how behaved they are. It’s just, no one says anything to them, but they are just so behaved. There’s no loud screaming or yelling or nothing. It’s just like the site has something to do with it.

FA:  I agree. Yea, even when they’re there by the bus.

MD:  Why do you folks, why are you an ambassador?

FA:  I became an ambassador because when the families came, I live at the ski resort where the families came and I sat with the family members and cried with them and I felt that if I came here I could bring part of them with me and take care of their loved ones while they were not there.

FA:  I’m not a Shanksville person. I was teaching at the time, but I love National Parks and my friends from college know that because I’ve tried to tour as many as I could. So when they were here this summer they said to me, “You’re retired. Why aren’t you doing this?”  And I thought, I don’t know. Why am I not doing it? So that’s kind of why I did it then because of their urging and I thanked her. I thanked my friend because it’s been so rewarding.

FA:  You want to know why I’m doing it? Well, I feel since these people that died on that plane don’t have family here, maybe I can represent and try to keep, keep their memory alive and you know, by going out there and telling people what happened. I mean, I’m doing it for the people on the plane that died, not for me, not for anybody else. I just feel that I owe that to them, the people that died on the plane.

MD:  Well why would you owe that to them?

FA:  Well, they could have died for me. You know? I mean, we don’t know what could have happened. That plane could have been, like if it was a couple hundred yards it could have been my house that was, that was hit. And it’s just, and that’s just the way I am. I go out and I fix the cemeteries and I do things like that and I just feel that this may be something I can do to help those families and the people that died on the plane.

FA:  There’s several levels to why I do it. One is, you know that, it’s like there’s been, it’s a public service, there’s a need there that… you know, that the public needs somebody to give the information and provide. The other is, when you go there, you go away and you actually, it sort of uplifts you a little bit. You feel better after you leave that place.

MD:  I’m seeing other people nod. What, help me understand what that’s like or more of that feeling.

FA:  When you feel that you’ve done something to, that you’ve done something good in life and there’s not enough good in life done and you’re helping these families. The families aren’t there, but you’re helping the memory of these people and what they had done for us because they were our first line of defense against the terrorists.

FA:  I think it’s what David said too. Any time you can talk with somebody and reach a commonality and like, different people you’ll connect for different reasons, but it just… and I think if you just try to encourage others that, you know these were just common, ordinary people who did something extraordinary. And that maybe, in the same circumstance we could have the courage to be like that too. I think it just, I think we just need to get that message out to people that there, that we can overcome, we just have to keep… be persistent at it.

FA:  Yea the story of what happened on that plane, people on a normal day all of a sudden took the initiative to change history and that, in my mind, is part of what democracy is. And that’s one of the really strong stories about them and you know, when you tell it you sort of hope that if something like that happened to you, could you do it? And I think that’s what a lot of people, it really strikes a lot of people. You know, and makes them wonder about them.

FA:  And may we all be fortunate enough to never have to actually find out. And they all took a collective vote among themselves, you know, on board that plane to do this. That’s democracy.

FA:  If you ask anybody that works the shift before I work, they’re probably standing there going, is she ever going to get out of here because I leave… I’m like so busy and I just tear myself away from whatever it is I’m doing and zoom up there at the very last minute and say, “Here I am.”  And then when the two hours is over and I drive home, I drive very slowly and I think, what else did I do this entire week that meant this much. And for me, it’s very grounding, it’s just kind of revisiting what’s important in life. It’s those relationships that the people on the plane had with their loved ones, that the communication among the people on the plane… the communication with their loved ones. All of that, that really, you know what a privilege. I feel so privileged to tell this story. It really is!

FA:  Yes, it is a privilege. It’s an honor.

FA:  And I hope I do it justice when I’m there. I feel very, sometimes very inadequate to tell the story of people that well, I think like what Dave was saying. You know they found out who they were that day. And you hope that, you know when you’re faced with a difficult decision you take the high road.

FA:  Most of the times people make out that Shanksville is really different, but I think there’s a lot of communities in our country that are very much like this and would respond in a similar way. But the fact that we did respond in a positive way, I think that we’re providing a positive role model by maybe encouraging other communities to take individual action. What we did in the community and also what people did on that plane, I think is an inspiration to other people that, it’s individuals often times that make a difference and I think that’s a really strong message to get across. If you wait for politicians to try and do it or a consensus to build it could take forever. But often times there’s occasions where things need to be done quicker and individuals can do that.

MD:  Are there particular individual, either people or moments that stand out to you from your experience as ambassador? The most memorable, most challenging, more rewarding, sort of moments that capture the essence of what it means to be an ambassador from your experience?

FA:  I always feel so inadequate when the family members come. I just feel so intimidated or inadequate. I fell that maybe I’m not doing what, what they would like me to do. I just…

FA:  Well me being new, I was there on a Monday and I saw this lady and her son and I just stepped out onto the porch area and said, I have a book and some pictures in here if you’d like me to explain some things to you. And I watched them walk over and start doing something with the one angel and then Adam came to relieve me and it was Louis Nackey’s mother and brother and I didn’t recognize them and I thought, I guess I don’t need to tell them the story. So, you know, it kind of made me feel… but she just laughed.

FA:  Well we were talking about how the uplifting experience of working as an ambassador and it’s really pretty straight ahead because you interact with people and they let you know how much they appreciate what you’re doing. And it’s hard to be appreciated that much without being uplifted. I think it’s pretty straight forward.

FA:  It’s like half the people or more that are there will thank you for being there.

FA:  I’ve volunteered with many other groups and this is the only group that we get as many thank you as we do here.

FA:  Again, I think it’s because of the power of the site, the power of what happened there. That it makes people just be more appreciative of what’s important because it affected everybody. It’s just not a certain group of people. Like I work with Make-A-Wish and it’s the children there who have life-threatening illnesses. But this thing could have happened to anyone anywhere.

MD:  So, you’re not saying a lot about particular experiences. Maybe that’s something in and of itself or I don’t know.

FA:  I think for me, they sort of run together. The emotions are so strong that… I mean I don’t remember names and faces or particular moments at all. But as I sit here now if I just, I can picture myself up there and the emotions just start to build and it, it gets to the place where it’s hard. I’m probably the most reluctant ambassador. I’m not sure I’d even be doing it if it wasn’t for Donna, my wife. The whole business of Flight 93 is such a, you know, it had become such a central part of her life and I love her and I respect her and I’m so proud of her and that’s what keeps me going.

FA:  I did have one experience out there. We were scheduled for the eight to ten shift on July 3rd, thinking we’re not going to have that many people. And right after we got there we looked outside and there’s these three big buses coming in and they all go out and they were from Kansas and it was a marching group that was going to march in the Independence Day Parade. And they said they had to stop here first. And the reason they came is that right after the crash happened, their band director went outside and took a picture of the halo in the sky. And they presented us with a plaque to give to the memorial for that. And that year they did their whole program to halos in the sky. And afterward, thinking about it, there were so many halos in the sky of all the planes that were circling to land. And they got out and one of the players played taps and they all got back on and he even said, “I didn’t get any sleep last night on this bus.”  I go, “You can do this.”  And they did a beautiful job and off they went to do their Independence Day March.

FA:  As far as moving time, there was a time a plane, some little private plane flew up and did like a loop and salute. And the time that bag piper played.

FA:  There was a little old man and it wasn’t, it was maybe two years ago and he was standing over by the wall and I walked over to him and I started to talk to him and he was crying. And I said, I asked him what happened and he started telling me this story that he lives down by… he is a farmer and he was out in his field that day and he said, “I saw that plane go over my barn.”  And he said, “And I saw, I saw those people looking out the window.”  And then he cried and I just felt, it was just kind of overwhelming and he said, “It was two years before I could come over here.”  And he was so, so… I don’t know, so emotional. He said, “I saw those ladies, I saw those people looking out the window. The plane was so low.”  Then you know, you hear a lot of stories of people that saw the plane here and there and everywhere and you don’t know… we know some of them didn’t, but I felt that this man did because it was just the way, and it was the way the plane come in and everything.

MD:  Let’s take a break and everyone get some peanut butter no-bakes. I’ve had my eyes on those all night.

FLIGHT 93 NATIONAL MEMORIAL

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

CONVERSATION CIRCLE TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH:

Ambassadors:

Jerich, Stan

Klein, Sharon

Glessner, Donna

Kiehl, Janie

Way, Bob

McClintock, Linda

INTERVIEWER: Ginny Barnett

INTERVIEWER DATE: 3-27-07

LOCATION: Shanksville Methodist Church, Upper Level

INTERVIEW LENGTH: one audio cassette

TRANSCRIBER: Jean Devenny

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

[First 1.25 minutes of tape are inaudible]

We were instructed to get everybody out, except the family members and, since we have a lot of experience with the Make a Wish families, they said if families want to talk, let them talk since they’re going to be left alone, you know, leave them alone. We had a couple experiences with family members that were intense. We spoke with the family of the Flight attendants who were disabled and they had the mom there, and she didn’t know her daughter was deceased, and so her brothers asked us to keep that from her. And then, my wife talked to a fellow who lost his wife who was, just had a child, and he had the baby there, and she was, that was her last month; she was going to retire [inaudible]. So, we got close with some of the family members in that aspect, and then the ambassador group was formed. We visited the site, we had Donna there, and told her we’re going to [inaudible for 4 minutes].

I think something that Dave said over there was, how do we, you know how do we, how would we respond if it was us? You know, would we have done this? And I think that would be, be another aspect of that is, the connection that they tried to make, even through the suffering, is that you know I can be a part of their suffering. If I’ve suffered just because it’s a [inaudible words], or part of the joy in knowing that they have done something that is really worthwhile. Of course I see a lot of our military personnel who come up there, have that sense of pride in those people who have done exactly why, why I’m in the service right now.

Mmmhmm, right.

Listen, what is it that day that something good came out of the courage, the resolve, you know that they prevented the capital from being destroyed, so people have something good they can identify with. It gives them courage, and it gives them, you know, we can challenge them, what would you do if you were in this situation? And I get great feedback when I do that you know. And so, it’s one good thing on that horrendous day that they can feel good about, as good you know as good as you can.

Right, right.

I think it is that they improved the patriotism in our country with what happened that day, and I think we all hear that from the visitors. More of a sense that we’re uniting it I guess you would say.

What makes Flight 93 different from all of the other flights that day?

People onboard weren’t any better people; they just had knowledge and time to react that unfortunately the other people didn’t have, and it caused them to take these actions that prevented more loss of life and prevented the capital from being destroyed, and our government from being, just shattered. I read just recently someone took this to the next level, which I’d never thought about: If the capital had been hit…

What would have happened

…and all those legislators; there’s nothing in the Constitution that covers timely replacement of elected officials, and there would have been a lengthy period with no quorum, nobody to really step in and run the government. And it’s just, the ramifications of this flight having gone on and hit its target, had it, had those people not taken an action or had the plane not been delayed in Newark, you know a million little things that compounded to make what happened, happen. You know you could just spend idle hours and hours going through the scenarios in your mind of, well what would have happened to the country? None of it good.

In addition to that, just from a local point of view, that two seconds away from a school…

Well, yeah, right.

…We get a lot of response from that when we mention that 2 seconds would have wiped out a generation of this town.

Well, you know what we often don’t think about is all the places that they went over before they reached this place, …

Right, exactly. Yeah, but this is here, and this is real.

… where they crashed. I mean, just the [inaudible word] schools, 2 seconds the other way.

Yeah, right, right.

You know, I see the role of the ambassadors as, as just, in addition to listening and being a listening post for people, it’s having factual information for people that have either been misinformed or had forgotten or never were really involved and engaged in this story because they were more connected with New York or more connected with the Pentagon and they, they missed this story. It was the, the forgotten, remember they used to call it the forgotten flight?…

Mmhmm.

…I don’t know if people still do that anymore or not, but you know what we’re doing up there is keeping that story true. It’s, we’re keeping it from becoming this convoluted legend, like some people want it to be, and we’re like, I don’t know, sort of the north, the pole, you know the thing that keeps the truth outstanding.

Yeah.

That’s what I was thinking too during his presentation. He was wondering why other people don’t come to the parks as much as they do and so forth. And what makes us different is there are human beings there that were close to the situation and tell the story factually, whereas when we took the trip to D.C. to see all them monuments, you have employees there that are going to ramble on the statistics. But like, for example, at the World War II memorial, if you had one of them older fellows that were in the war telling the story, it’d be more meaningful. Here, you have human beings telling that story you know that were close to it, and I think that’s the difference. You know when we’re all gone, is there going to be your kids and relatives stepping up to the plate to do the Flight 93 story to continue that? You know once this monument is built and they throw a movie in there without this personal touch of us, it’s not going to be the same.

Right.

It’s inevitable, huh?…

Yeah, it is.

…that people that were alive aren’t going to be here forever.

Yep, I agree. But I mean, a program to set up to have some other people following in our footsteps may be something they want to look at.

Well, and that’s why the exhibitory that they’re, that will come out of all of this has to be so reflective of the people that are alive now, and it has to stand for us when we’re gone.

Mmhmmm.

Peggy mentioned 500 years from now, will we still have the same story 500 years from now? This is something that I thought of. And the actual facts, as we relate them, will they still be the same facts in 500 years? You know how when gossip starts when you repeat something and how it goes down the line and it ends up, it’s different when it hits the other end of the line.

Well, and there’s a different, another aspect of that is: how much of the truth as that, I mean, you know, quoted, how much of the “truth” do we know at this point? We tell the story as we know what the truth is. How we might envision that we would learn more of that truth, and I don’t know what’s out there at this point, but that can change the story as well.

[inaudible] Abraham will put it in some [inaudible]

[Group laughs]

You know, David kind of threw me when he was talking about people coming hundreds of years…

Yeah, I know

…and them understanding how we feel, what, why we do what we do, and that’s a challenge. I mean, because, Shanksville’s going to change. I wouldn’t know how, but it’s surely going to change the way people relate to their faith, to courage, to sacrifice. They may not comprehend where we’re coming from unless we’re very clear on that.

Right.

Well let me ask you this, if you were just to describe the place, the site, how would you describe the spirit of the place, here and now, the current spirit, if you will. How would you describe that?

Varied, and I think it’s, it depends on the individual and what the individual brings. For some people, it’s a place of serenity. When they come here they can just feel at peace. Other people, depending upon what they’re bringing, they’re own paradigm, as they walk into that place, they can still feel that anger and, and, and experience the, the hostility of what had happened there. So I don’t think places, I don’t think that that place is necessarily the same for everybody who, who approaches it. It could be a sacred place, or it could be a, for some of the locals, who note that what was their [inaudible word]. And now this, you know [inaudible word] mindsight that, how one person said to me, they really rate the limit. I mean that mentality of what happened there, compared to what was there before, that individual brings a different perspective of what that place is. Family members, everyone that I talked to so far feel that it’s the, it’s that serenity, it’s a good place, it is that sacred ground, it is a cemetery.

One thing we’ve noticed more than anything else, I think, is the kids. [Inaudible words] Kids are running and screaming and making noise, and the parents are clueless as to what’s going on, but when they come to that site, those kids are so well-behaved, it’s unbelievable. That’s a big difference.

So they understand it?

That’s what it is, it’s just about that place. Kids don’t misbehave.

I got a letter from a grandmother once that wrote about coming there with a 3-year-old, and she said this, and she sent a picture of this so we could envision this. She had this little boy, who really couldn’t have had any understanding of what it’s all about…

[Inaudible words]

He looked at these angels, the slain angels, and he just plopped down on the gravel on the bank there, and he said “grandma, I just have to sit here awhile.” And he just sat, and she thought, that’s, that’s like an adult reaction, you know what you would do if you were as unrestrained as a child.

That’s what I mean, it’s just, that’s what it is.

It’s, it’s a contrast though. It’s, it isn’t something you find a lot of people are, just overcome by sadness when they leave. It’s such a sad, sad place. And then, you know I think a lot of them have some kind of a…

Transformation

…while they’re there and they realize that there’s a hope in that story, too, and an inspiration in that story. So, it’s not simply a sorrowful place. It’s sort of like the Christian reaction to death you know. It is sorrowful and you’re losing that person, but you know that they’ve gone to eternal life and so you have this hope. I don’t know this, I’m not saying that they have that spiritual connection, but it, they’re, they see the hope in the story, too.

We don’t have many places where we are inspired to hope. Maybe in our worship, wherever we worship, and however we worship. But this is a place that belongs to the whole country, and everyone can come if they choose, if they’re in the right frame of mind, to find hope. So that’s…

That’s what makes it special.

…that’s really it, I think.

If someone could not be there, visit the site, what would be the most difficult thing to communicate to them about the site do you think?

It’s a little bit like going to the Grand Canyon. You can see pictures of the Grand Canyon, you can look at them, you can say they’re beautiful, but you have to go there to experience it. And that’s, I think the same thing here. I think it’d be very hard to express the feeling. A lot of times, in fact I don’t know how many times, people have said to me, we didn’t know what to expect, but when we hit the top of the hill, it hit us. And I get that a lot, where they’d said, it’s just, they just couldn’t believe their emotions, their, the site, you know the physical site, but it was their emotions. I just think, you just can’t, you can’t do it. You have to go there to see it. I could tell them about a trip I was on and somebody would sit there and look at me, well, until they did it.

Right, just like pictures of vacation…

Right. It’s the same thing.

…You can’t relate to those pictures unless you’ve experienced it.

I’ve had that experience at Mt. Rushmore. I mean, we went to Mt. Rushmore just because, you know…

It’s the thing to do.

…you should probably spend a day there. But I was not prepared for …

It’s awesome.

…for the impact that that would have on me…

Yeah.

…how that, I mean, the awe that I just stood and looked at the mountain and looked at the mountain, and we went back 5 times in 3 days because I just had to see it again. And I think this site has that.

Right.

You know, I’ve seen the, well the fundraising job is very well done. It really gives you some of the sense of being there, but if you worked there in the first place to experience that, I think you miss a whole lot of that.

I think what happens, too, when they come to the site [inaudible words] like you say. They start reliving that day. They don’t do it on the way to here, but once they hit that site, they start remembering where they were, what they were doing, how they felt at the time.

Right, right. [inaudible words]

And I think part of the power of the thing is the sky that you get so much of when you come over the hill. And the sky, I, you know I always try to bring people back to the idea that, what really happened is significant here is what happened to the sky, and there’s so much sky over there. You know the, the crash site, the place where the plane ended up, that’s really the postscript that is really irrelevant. What is relevant is what, what they did up there. And it’s such a variable sky, you know it’s such a dramatic [inaudible word].

Mmhmm.

How do you see your community being affected by 93 and 9-11. What’s been the impact on your community?

Truth? …

Truth.

…[inaudible words] go away.

Yeah, I think so.

I think there’s a lot of, more indifference out there than you think there is. And there’s a lot of people that don’t grasp why we are dedicated to go up there, in all kinds of weather, to greet those people who come. You said you wanted truth, that’s truth.

Why would they want it to go away?

Well, go away is just kind of a figure of speech.

They wish it’d never happened…

They wish it’d never happened

…or happened somewhere else

Yeah, that it happened somewhere else, not here. Even though the community was responsive and, and so forth, that the people were really wonderful, but then they say, it’s over; let’s forget it…

Move on.

…It’s time to move on.

Right…Donna?

[Donna] That’s, for me, one of the hardest parts…

Right, this is very hard for me.

…of being part of this program because you know that people that you care about and even family members don’t approve of what you’re doing.

But isn’t that the way the whole country is now…

Amen. That’s right.

…about 9/11. They’re back to their normal life, and it’s starting to fade too fast, the whole 9/11 deal.

That’s why we need the civic involvement…

Right.

…because we’ve lost it as a nation. I don’t think our children are being challenged in, in social studies anymore to become a part of what’s happening in our country, so we have to, we have to inspire them. When children come to the site, I try to involve them and say, you know imagine being on that plane. Have you taken a plane ride? You know, and try to get their perspective. Here in our community, I’m shocked; I, you know, kind of isolated but that’s really sad. We have been given this incredible gift to, to need people, to be a blessing to them, and there’s apathy. Well, that blows me away.

They don’t understand…

It’s disapproval.

…It’s disapproval and it’s also, they don’t understand that, if we…well me for example, I made a commitment. I’m like Stan: if I make a commitment to something, I make it the whole way you know. And there’s just some that don’t understand that.

And we need civic education right here.

[Inaudible male voice]

Well, that’s true.

And we’re, we’re a microcosm of the rest of the society.

Well yes.

Ask your question again though, because I think we went off a little different than…

Well no; how has it impacted your community? How has Flight 93 and 9/11 impacted your community?

See, I think this, I think this community has changed a whole lot without recognizing it, without realizing it. Um, six years ago, if a, if a car from Minnesota drove down the middle of the street, we would look and go, who is that? And now we can have you know …

The president could probably ride through town and…

…Yeah.

And tour buses don’t turn [inaudible word] anymore

You know that.

So there’s been, there’s been a subtle change that has been there. People don’t appreciate it; they want what they had before. They would like to be this little enclave that was between 30 and 31 that nobody ever went to. That’s what they don’t appreciate that now, but it’s changed; it’s not that. So it’s had a big impact, and I guess there’s, there’s some reality; some people don’t want that in fact.

Right.

[Inaudible words]

On the other hand, and there’s always another hand, isn’t there? I think…

Well here’s the other hand.

[Laughter]

…people around, well yeah we are, and we’re not, you know there are many people that do support what we’re doing that aren’t doing it but they are supportive, too…

Yeah, yeah.

But, I think people have found a lot of pride for living in Somerset county because of all the positive publicity that the area’s gotten as being you know responding in an appropriate, honorable way to what happened here, and with that, there’s responsibility. I feel a lot of responsibility to be, not me personally, but for our community to speak just right, because everybody’s watching us, you know? I want everybody’s houses to look nice, and I want you know I want everyone to treat everybody kindly, and I don’t want children to be smoking pot, and I you know, I don’t want to be in the police blotter. I want Shanksville and my, and my home to be exemplary and that’s really a hard, you know, sort of a burden. I can’t fix everything.

Because you are a showcase, people coming in all the time.

It was really, really true right afterward when there were a lot of press around and they were running all these stories and taking pictures of everybody and everything.

You missed those days, dear.

Well, she was doing her own thing.

[Inaudible words]

But it happens every September 11th when they come back…

Absolutely.

…I just sort of hold my breath that somebody isn’t going to get ahold of the media and just blow their top about you know this, that, and the other thing and, and you know, and come off as our community is, give us a black eye, when people have felt that we’re this ideal.

I thought we were!

[Laughter and inaudible words]

Sharon, honey, we’re sorry to break your bubble.

Yeah, I’m 3 miles away and I’m thinking, man Shanksville’s an incredible place.

Of course, Stan doesn’t live here either so he’s not feeling that. You know.

It’s really so interesting for me to hear this. And of course it’s human nature; we’re not servants by heart. You know, we have to decide, choose, to be a servant and not everyone’s at that place, you know. So, of course it happens.

Well I’m from a very small town, similar to Shanksville, so I think our town would have reacted exactly the same way. They would’ve you know come to the rescue, did what they could, and after awhile, they just settle back into their own little world.

[Inaudible] The pastor now, there’s an 80, 20 rule, that 20 percent of the people do it yourself or [inaudible] church. True enough?

Yeah. Absolutely.

Uh, yeah.

The same thing’s true in the community.

Yeah.

20 percent of the people to 80 percent of the civic engagement.

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, you know also 20 percent of the people will bring the black eye out there as well, and that’s very expected. We, we have to be more careful not to lump everything together and say this is what we are, you know. We’re as varied as any other community, whether we’re 245 people or 12,500 people or 125,000 people. There’s going to be that small group of people. If this would have happened in Pittsburg, there would have been a…

There would have been a [inaudible]

…group of people who would have stepped up to the plate, sure.

Sure.

I think any small town in America would have done it, too.

Yeah, I’m really fairly uncomfortable with this idea of [inaudible words] being important, and it really is. Where, our reaction is not unique, and I really think this would have happened. But anyway.

That’s the story. That’s the hope, especially if you can, if you feel that this is not a unique story, unique reaction, that is the hope, that people need to have across this nation.

[Inaudible words]

People were challenged, whether they’re on the airplane or whether they’re on the ground; challenged people do the right thing…

[Inaudible]

…they do what has to be done.

So that answers the second question. Why are we an ambassador? Because we had to give people hope. We had to be there for people. Donna saw the need.

Thank God, Donna.

You know, Donna saw the need, you know.

[Inaudible group talking]

Somebody has to start something, you know. And I think that everyone that has chosen to be an ambassador [inaudible]. I have to quote this. At the time, Donna goes here to church. At the time our mission statement read reaching out in loving service with the hands of Christ. I think it’s a fantastic mission statement, and it’s something that I think that each one of in our own way have met that mission statement.

Do you all feel the same way as to why you became an ambassador? Were there other reasons that might have…

Probably might be a little different for me. I think it is more, I mean, my role as pastor is one of connectedness, and I think that was probably you know where I started out when we started talking here, is that sense of connecting those people to, individually, to look in the right place. Now look at the palms and say that’s right plenty of times. So, connecting them with the truth…

[SIDE B]

[Side B is inaudible]

FLIGHT 93 NATIONAL MEMORIAL

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH:  Foster Olive

CONNECTION TO FLIGHT 93:  son-in-law of Flight 93 passenger Andrew Garcia

INTERVIEWER:  Barbara Black

INTERVIEWER DATE:  October 28, 2006

LOCATION:  Foster Olive’s home in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina

INTERVIEW LENGTH:  2 audio cassettes

TRANSCRIBER:  Mary L. Schrock

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

BB:  This is an interview with Foster Olive of Mount Pleasant, South Carolina; son-in-law of Andrew Garcia, husband of Audrey Olive, daughter of Andrew Garcia.  This interview is being conducted on October 28, 2006 at Foster’s home.  The interviewer is Barbara Black, representing the Oral History Project of the Flight 93 National Memorial.

BB:  Can you tell me your name please?

FO:  Foster Olive.

BB:  And where were you born?

FO:  I was born in Washington, D. C. and we lived in Bethesda at the time.

BB:  And what is your age?

FO:  I am thirty seven.

BB:  And when were you born?

FO:  1969.

BB:  Tell me about your early childhood growing up; where did you live?

FO:  We lived in Bethesda, Maryland until I was about three and then my dad’s work took him out to Palo Alto, California.  From there I pretty much lived in Palo Alto up until I went to college.  It was a great city.

BB:  And where did you go to college?

FO:  I went to the University of California at San Diego for undergraduate.  I graduated in 1991 and then I went to graduate school in a neuroscience PhD program at UCLA.

BB:  And what type of work are you doing now?

FO:  I do bio-medical research on drug and alcohol addiction.  I’m in the psychiatry department at the Medical University of South Carolina.

BB:  What position do you hold?

FO:  I’m an assistant professor.

BB:  Very interesting work.  When did you meet Audrey?

FO:  I met Audrey in February of 1998; it was about a year after I finished graduate school, and we had both actually attended the same church growing up called Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, and she had known my mother through work at the church.  Actually my mother was the one who gave Audrey my phone number and said, if you ever want to meet a nice young man, then you can give him a call.  She did.

BB:  She called you?

FO:  She left a message; she was excited, she didn’t get to talk to me in person but she left a message.  We started phone contact and then we eventually met up at a church function and we started dating around April of 1998.  We were married by September, 1999.

BB:  Tell me about Audrey.

FO:  She is a very sweet and sensitive person; she is very down to earth, very sensitive to others, sensitive to interactions with people and she is a very people-oriented person which is one of her strengths.

BB:  And are those the things that attracted you to her?

FO:  Yeah, and that she was approachable and likeable and she had – we both had sort of bad luck in dating throughout our lives, and we were finally glad that we found each other and we were tired of the whole dating scene when we found each other and really liked each other and just stuck with it.

BB:  When did you first meet Andy Garcia?

FO:  I met him probably about a month after we started dating.  I met her mother first.

BB:  Dorothy?

FO:  Dorothy, yes, and then I met, her brother lived in San Diego at the time, so I met her sister Kelly and then eventually I met her father, Andrew.

BB:  What did you think of this whole family in general?

FO:  They seemed like a good family.  They actually lived about a mile from my own parents, and they seemed very close knit, very attractive family and they had a wonderful house.  They really seemed to be close knit.  There was a lot of interaction in all the family functions and things like that.

BB:  How did they react to you and Audrey dating?

FO:  They were very, very excited that Audrey had found somebody, I had found somebody and we had… they were quite excited that she had met a nice man and someone that would treat her right because she had bad luck in the past and they were very excited and they were very accepting of me and welcoming me into their family.

BB:  So you felt very welcome.

FO:  Yeah.

BB:  Very much at ease?

FO:  Very much at ease. When you meet the parents of the one you are dating, you always feel you have to put on your best impressions, but especially I think with Andy.  He was very genuinely interested in you and what you are doing, what you have to say.  I would say of all the people in her family, he was the most warm and receptive. He and I hit it off mainly because he had a real, great sense of humor, something I tend to value. He was kind of jocular, somebody that really makes you feel at ease because he didn’t drill you with questions.  He just was kind of a prankster.

BB:  He was known for playing tricks on people.

FO:  Yes.

BB:  Can you tell me a little bit about that?  Do you have some stories to tell?

FO:   He actually never played…the only time he played a trick is when I went to her parents to ask them permission to marry Audrey, and he asked me if I had a dowry.  I couldn’t tell if he was serious for a moment but then he was joking. [chuckling]  That was about the only time he played a joke on me, but he was known for playing jokes on other people, calling up and disguising his voice and speaking in Spanish – that type of stuff.  I had only known him for about a little over three years.

BB:  Are there any stories that stand out in your mind of the types of things that he would pull on people?

FO:  I am trying to remember.  I’m drawing a blank at the moment. Can we come back to that?

BB:  He was very physically fit.  What motivated him, what did he do, why was that important to him?

FO:  He was a runner.  He liked to go running which I always envied because I hate it; he was always out running in the neighborhood.  I think he just wanted to stay healthy.  He was in his late fifties when we first met, and he was a slightly shorter man, maybe 5’ 6” or 5’ 7”, but he was remarkably fit for his age.  Like my dad, who also strives to be physically fit by playing tennis, they seemed to seem to have that drive, an athletic drive in them, especially at that age for staying fit; not just the old grandpa that sits on the couch reading the newspaper.

BB:  He was very active?

FO:  Yes, they worked out.  Maybe that was part of the reason he was active in athletics because he worked out of his own house and I think he needed to get out. Most people go to work away from the house a good portion of the day, but I think he needed an out, a way to get out, maybe at least once a day.  He would also drive down to a post office box where the company would receive mail, and he liked to get out of the house I think, because he was [coughing] Excuse me, allergies, a lot of rag weeds.

BB:  He ran his business from his home?

FO:  Yes, he ran a distributor for industrial batteries, parts for engines.  He had originally worked for United Airlines and he eventually opened up his own business selling industrial parts from the manufacturers to the customers.  He was basically a distributor, and he ran it extremely efficiently out of his house, just he and his wife were the employees.

BB:  He had some strong Christian values.

FO:  Yes.

BB:  Are you comfortable talking about that?

FO:  Oh sure, yes, he was. it turns out the name of his company was called Cinco Group, and I had always thought that was from Spanish number five which there were five of them, Audrey and her two siblings and the parents.  There were five people – the Cinco group.  I later found out that he meant it to be Christ in Company which is a contraction of that.  He was a very religious man; he went to church regularly and would always lead the blessing at the meal before the meal.  Of course, he would break into his jocular self but he taught that to his kids too.  They were also very, especially Audrey, of the three children, Audrey would probably be the most religious oriented, Christian oriented person.

BB:  Did that instill other values and priorities into his home life that Audrey grew up in?

FO:  I would say so.  First of all, it was an attraction for me because I was also raised in a Christian family so to find someone else who had the same upbringing was quite an attractive, something you always look for, and with having that same religious background, you can kind of rest assured that you’re going to have much of the same values, maybe not always completely but the values that are brought up are based on the same faith, so therefore you don’t have that anxiety about whether your in-laws are going to be of an entirely different upbringing.  He did instill them; he instilled polite treatment of people, respect for your elders, respect for the people.  He instilled that in his children, and it showed.

BB:  Can you tell me about your marriage to Audrey and where you first lived.

FO:  When we first got married, we had bought a small town home in San Mateo which is about twenty miles south of San Francisco, and we lived there actually until January of 2005 when we moved.  That was about a twenty minute drive from either of our parents’ houses.  So we lived there, and the area housing was quite expensive so we felt we were fortunate enough to be able to afford and purchase a home with the help of our parents financially.  We were quite happy there because it was a nice three-bedroom, three-bath, two-story town home that was the first home. Fortunately being the first home owners, it was a town home which means you don’t have to mow the lawn, you don’t have to do a lot of upkeep on the outside, you have an association that does that for you.  It was a good introduction to being a first-time home owner.

BB:  And where were you working at that time?

FO:  I had worked when I first met Audrey, I was working at Stanford University as a post doctoral fellow in the psychiatry department, and I didn’t like the job that I had had so I was looking for a new one. This was actually that I had quit my job shortly after we started dating and I was unemployed for about four months, so I had always wondered what her parents thought of me being a PHD and having no job, dating their daughter. [chuckling] I then took a job at the Ernest Gallo Clinic and Research Center which is an addiction research institute based at UCFS, University of California, San Francisco.  That was where I continued my addiction research and that was actually located in San Francisco before the facility moved to a satellite building in Emeryville which is right near Berkley.  I commuted there every day.

BB:  You had a lot of contact with the Garcia’s?

FO:  Yeah, they would have dinners quite often.  Audrey is very close to her family so we would frequent, and they would come to our place as well, but they invited Audrey and me down for dinner a couple times a month and they would have Christmas parties that we would be invited to.  There was a lot of; we did a lot of stuff with them. I spent a lot of time with my parents as well. Both of us had close relationships with our parents so it continued well into adulthood.

BB:  And Audrey’s siblings?

FO:  Yes, her brother at the time lived in San Diego so we didn’t see him as often, but her sister lived nearby and she was there quite often.

BB:  So this is a close family?

FO:  Yes.

BB:  And Audrey became pregnant?

FO:  Audrey became pregnant.  We were, I think in December of 2000.  We were married a little over a year, and she was eager to have kids. I had wanted to wait maybe another couple of years, but she was eager to have kids and she was approaching thirty, so we figured, why not?  She was pregnant and I believe her due date was September 15th, 2001.  Starting on September 1st of 2001, I took time off from work and was at home just in case the baby came.  You never know with these things.  We had had an ultrasound, and it was a boy and we had originally decided if it was a girl, we were going to name it Ashley and if it was a boy, we were going to name it Jacob.  We kind of started to call the baby Ashley Jacob before we knew what sex it was, and somehow they evolved into A. J., but when we found out it was a boy, we decided his name would be Jacob Michael.  My first name is Michael.  Jacob was a very popular name at the time, so we thought we would name him Jacob Michael Olive, and then when September 11th occurred, we decided to name him after Andy so we changed it to Andrew Jacob which is still an A. J.  This is what we call him today; it’s kind of an interesting story about how he was named.

BB:  There was a large family gathering before September 11th.

FO:  Yes.

BB:  Could you talk about that?

FO:  Every summer, the Garcia family which is Andy’s side of the family, had lived – a lot of his relatives – his sister, his mother, a lot of the cousins lived down just south of Palo Alto.  Just south of there, there were a lot of family members and every summer they would have a little cookout – kind of a BBQ at a park down in Santa Clara.  I think this one happened to be on Labor Day – the Labor Day weekend, early September.  That was always a lot of fun.  There were at least twenty people there and every year I would go, I would still have trouble remembering everybody’s name and I think to this day, I still do, just because you see them only once a year and you don’t really get to consolidate what their names are.  That was the nice big family event.

BB:  And was Andy in usual form, pulling pranks?

FO:  Oh, yes. I didn’t see him pulling any pranks, but we did have, he and a couple of his cousins would always dress up in their aprons.  They would be manning the barbecue and they would always pose and do their thing.  I don’t remember any prank at that particular thing, but I don’t remember ever seeing him in a bad mood.  He was always a very happy, not moody person at all, just always in a good mood type of person.

BB:  A few days after that he had business on the East Coast.  Can you describe what was going on those days?

FO:  Yes, he would often go to meetings with clients of his that he did business with and this one was in Newark, somewhere around Newark, that he left for I think it was Saturday, the eighth of September.  I remember him expressing the fact that he didn’t want to go.

BB:  Why?

FO:  You know his daughter was due for birth the next week, and it was an average meeting and he didn’t really want to go.  He knew he had to; it was just part of business, so he went, but I remember him saying that he wished he didn’t have to go.  It’s just one of those trips that you just say; I wish I could stay home.

BB:  When was the last time that you saw him before he left on this trip?

FO:  The last time I saw him was at the family gathering, and then I’m sure we talked on the phone that week afterwards before he left for his trip.

BB:  And how was Audrey with him leaving so close to her due date?

FO:  I think she was o.k. with it because I think she had been told that the first baby was usually late and she wasn’t due until the 15th, and he was due to come back on the 11th.  She wasn’t really worried about the kid coming early.  I knew she wanted him to be there; and she knew he would be back in time for it.  She also had me home; I was staying home from work, so I think she was fairly reassured that if anything did happen, that he would be in good hands but also that he would probably be home immediately if she had gone into labor.

BB:  This was his first grandchild?

FO:  Yes, first grandchild.

BB:  Was he looking forward to this?

FO:  I think so, I think he was because he was outnumbered because there were three women in the house and he had a younger son, so they were outnumbered three to two, and I think he was looking forward to having a little boy around.  I think he was kind of excited about it.  He didn’t show too much, but I think he was excited about having a little boy in the house.

BB:  Did you know before the child was born what sex it was?

FO:  Yeah, we did an ultrasound and found out it was a boy, I think after three months or whatever it is you do.

BB:  So he knew he was going to be a boy?

FO:  Yeah

BB:  And that pleased him?

FO:  Yes, he had actually gone on a – they had invited me on a family vacation with them. I believe it was in May of 2001 and we all went to Hawaii and they did some business while they were there.  He saw some clients but he also took us along with him to go to Waikiki and –

BB:  –and Audrey was pregnant at the time?

FO:  Yes, Audrey was pregnant at the time.

BB:  Did she travel?

FO:  Yes, I think she was only six months pregnant and you’re not supposed to travel after the seventh or eighth month so she did.

BB:  What was that trip like?

FO:  It was fun.  It was a bit chaotic, Audrey was pregnant and her brother had had a child the previous summer so it wasn’t the first grandchild as in my previous comment, it was the first grandson.  Her brother had had a child unexpectedly the previous summer, and she was eight to nine months at the time.  We shared a hotel room with her brother, his wife and the young child.  Audrey was pregnant and having a young child, you had to be quiet and it was different than normal family vacations.  We had always been on vacation where you just go and kind of relax.  With a child there, everything changes.

BB:  It was the family having a good time.

FO:  Yeah, we did some sightseeing, went to the beach quite a bit, it was only three or four days; it wasn’t a lengthy stay.

BB:  Let me take you back to Andy leaving for his trip and September 11th.  Can you tell me how your day started on September 11th?

FO:  It was a Tuesday and we were actually just sleeping in.  I was off of work because we were expecting the baby and I think about 7:30 or 7:45 in the morning, the phone rang.  It was somewhat early for the phone to ring at our house.  It was actually one of my good friends from high school calling me to tell me ‘have you turned the TV on, do you have any idea what’s going on?  The World Trade Center is gone, some terrorists have flown hijacked planes into it, the Pentagon has been hit and is complete chaos.’  This was roughly 10:30 – 10:45 East Coast time after everything had pretty much happened, and so we had no idea.  We were asleep and nothing was going on.

We turned on the TV and we saw that every channel was on the news, and it was two planes had crashed into the World Trade Center, one had gone into the Pentagon, and then we suddenly realized that Andy was due to fly back on that very day.  We didn’t worry at first because we had heard that the planes were out of Boston, and I think D. C. was one of them; correct me if I’m wrong.  We were kind of rest assured that he was flying out of Newark; we’ll be o.k.  Then we called down to Audrey’s mother to see if she had heard anything from him or anything, and she said that she had not heard anything, but she was worried that all of this was going on and he was flying at the same time.

BB:  When Audrey called down to Dorothy, she didn’t know anything yet?

FO:  She was worried but she did not know anything as far as we knew.  Again, it was between 7:30 and 7:45 in the morning.

BB:  Did she talk about that phone call that she had received?

FO:  That Dorothy had received?  At the time, no, I don’t even think she knew what that phone call was, she thought maybe a bad connection or a wrong number that she didn’t think anything about that.  I didn’t find out that there was a brief phone call until much later, but she was concerned that she didn’t get a hold of him, that he probably was in the air and that all this was going on.  So we went down to be with her and find out what was going on.

There was concern that we originally thought that he was going to be o.k., that the planes had not come out of Newark and on the radio on the way down there, we were listening to it on about a twenty-minute drive, we had heard that there was a plane from Newark bound for San Francisco that had been reported to have crashed. I remember very clearly that Audrey almost went into almost a panic; she started breathing very heavily and said ‘oh my God, oh my God.’  And I said it can’t be his flight, you can’t think that at the time.  He always flew into San Jose, which is about forty-five minutes south of San Francisco, so that kind of reassured us.  We thought that can’t be his flight; he always flew out of San Jose, he never flew into San Francisco.  We were still very concerned and Audrey was upset, but again we were thinking that it wasn’t his plane, and we got to Audrey’s house, and we were the first ones there.  Her mother opened the door, obviously had been crying, her mascara was everywhere, and the first thing she said was ‘it was your father’s flight,’ and we all just broke into tears.  We still didn’t want to believe it because we didn’t know anything at the time.  She had confirmed that this flight that had gone down was indeed the one that Andy was supposed to be on.  We all just were glued to the TV and completely devastated, but we still didn’t have any information, there was no confirmation that this flight, this specific flight, he was due to arrive in San Francisco, and it was from Newark.  I think it was a while before they confirmed the flight number that it was 93.  I can’t remember if that was before or after we got there that they confirmed the flight number.  She had called the airline to find out he was on the plane, obviously tried his cell phone but there was no connection.  That’s how the morning went.

BB:  How was Audrey?

FO:  Very shaken, very upset, crying just couldn’t believe it but at the same time, had the hope that it wasn’t his flight or that he didn’t get on the plane or that it was a plane crash but there were survivors.  Since there was really nothing about this on the television at that time, occasionally they would flash over to the crash site, but really most of the day was focused on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, so we really had very little information.  Of course, Dorothy was in touch with the airline; we had gotten a call back from them saying that he was not in the air, that he had not made it on the airplane, then they had called back again and saying that he had been on the airplane  So there was so much confusion going on

BB:  How did the family react to that?

FO:  We were – I don’t remember where I was when that came through. I think it was not too long after that that they had called back and told her we’re sorry, but he was listed as being on the plane  By mid-morning, Audrey’s sister was there, Andy’s sister Caroline and his mother Isabelle was there over at Dorothy’s house and we were all just collecting it on the TV, we had gotten – Andrew and his son down at San Diego had decided to drive up because of this, and I think he was the one that put the connection together that this flight was his because he had heard on the radio what flight number was and he called Dorothy and asked her what was Daddy’s flight number?  She read it off to him from the note that she had to go pick them up at the airport.  This is how I recall.  It could be inaccurate, because it was such a crazy time.

BB:  What then, after that day?

FO:  I remember that night we went home and we were still very shaken and in tears and I remember watching the news.  I think it was close to midnight that night they were scrolling news things across the bottom of the screen that a flight had also crashed in Pennsylvania and there were no survivors.  That was the first time that we really found out and Audrey was like she was really holding on to the belief that there had maybe been survivors from the crash, that maybe Andy was one of them.  We saw that and she was angry actually; she was not so much upset, but angry.  She said ‘I cannot believe they just showed that.’  We went to bed that night and Audrey just cried and cried and cried.  I did too, and I don’t know how we slept; but we did, we were just so exhausted that we slept.

And over the next four or five days, every day we went down to Audrey’s mother’s house to be with family and find out what was going on.  I’m trying to think about what happened the day after.  The news media stated kind of that they had found out that he was on that flight.  They were looking for interviews.

BB:  Were they outside the house?

FO:  There was a van that was parked down the street that we knew was a news van and that’s what they wanted.  One person even came and approached us as we were in the driveway doing something.  They approached us that they were very sorry for your loss.  If you feel like talking, please let us know.  There were phone calls from the media as well.

BB: How did you react to that?

FO:  I didn’t – I thought it was a little upsetting that they would park down the street and just kind of wait for an opportunity for an interview.  The phone was ringing constantly so at first, they were they weren’t going to talk to anybody right now; then I think within the next couple days, I think it was actually Andrew that did a phone interview with one of the reporters, asking about Andy.  I just tried – those are some of the events that I remember.

Another event that happened on the day following the crash was we went to the obstetrician as Audrey was pregnant and we were wondering should we induce labor because Audrey is in such a stressful state, is this going to be harmful to the baby, is this going to jeopardize the labor?  They really said no, actually they said they gave her some anti-anxiety medications and told her that we should probably wait it out.  The baby is not in any danger at this point because he’s so far along, you don’t want to induce labor especially before the due date because it was September 12 and your due date is the 15th, there’s no point in inducing labor right now.  The baby’s fully developed and there’s no harm so we decided to keep it in there.  They eventually, you know, after the shock of September 11th, we started to kind of re-focus on the baby.  We were focused on the baby up to that point and then all of a sudden the attention shifted dramatically away from the baby and then perhaps as a coping mechanism, we started to focus back on the baby and taking care of him and wanting to make sure that the baby was all right.

I think it was September 18th the baby, no contractions, no nothing, just as the doctor said, the first baby’s gonna be late and he was.  We decided to go to the hospital and her doctor decided that maybe it was time to try to induce labor. We checked in on the 18th and started the labor process; they gave her the pitocin and everything to induce labor.  It wasn’t until 6 A. M. the next morning when A. J. was finally born.

BB:  And everything went well.

FO:  Everything was fine, it was a long labor and Audrey elected to do it without medications, without any kind of anesthesia.  I thought she was crazy; there was some tension with her mother and sister in the delivery room with her because that is what she wanted, and it was a long labor.  Being induced I think is very painful.  I wouldn’t know, as a guy [chuckling].  It was a lengthy labor, but everything came out fine, baby was fine.  I just can’t imagine what she was going through having lost her father and then trying to deliver a baby.

BB:  This is an extremely emotional time, and yet there’s all the sadness but then there’s happiness in the child being born.  Can you describe the three women, your wife, her sister and her mother?  How were they all reacting to this?

FO:  You know, they are very stoic; both her sister and her mother are very stoic in nature.  You don’t really see a lot of emotion out of them and I do from Audrey, with her personality, so Audrey was really the one that was more upset by this, visibly.  Her mother was very strong and supportive, talking Audrey through the labor.  Audrey occasionally would break down about her father passing away, and her mother did a good job of reassuring Audrey that he’s in heaven now, you have to focus on the baby, this is what you need to focus on now.  So they were, I was actually somewhat surprised at how they were able to control their emotions especially during the birth of a baby.

BB:  Dorothy and your family did not go to the crash site right away.

FO:  No, well there were a number of reasons; one was mostly that we could not have handled it at that time, there was just too much going on and we had a very small child and flying across the country would have been a very difficult task.  So we elected not to go.  It was something that we wanted to do, but emotionally we had too much to deal with at the time, so we waited until the one-year anniversary.

BB:  And Dorothy stayed to be with Audrey for the birth of the baby?

FO:  Yes, she stayed through the night until the baby was born and then we were all very tired after that.  He was born about six in the morning on the 19th.

BB:  And then the weeks after that?

FO:  The weeks after that were difficult as you can imagine.  There was a memorial service for Andy which was when you get that many people together, it’s somewhat of a happy time.  You know, you get to see family and people you haven’t seen in a while.  We had a brand new baby who was just a couple days old, and everybody wanted to see the baby so it was somewhat cheerful actually.  Of course, it was very sad but having the baby there, it was cheerful, but given it was just a memorial service and not an actual funeral.  There was no casket.  We didn’t feel that we had a lot of closure because there was no one to bury.  There was a time; I think it wasn’t until the following February when they finally released the remains, we actually had a funeral service.  It was a memorial service but it didn’t seem like a death.  It seemed more like a disappearance.  That was the way I always felt about it; it seemed like he had not come home and he wasn’t dead because there wasn’t any evidence of that and there was nothing, no casket, no anything, and it wasn’t for six months until we actually received remains.

I take that back, in December there was the return of the wedding ring which you probably know about, and the luggage tags and the wallet that they found was singed and smelled terribly of jet fuel.  That was somewhat of an uplifting event that they had found his ring and given it to Dorothy and it made a very nice story.  There was no funeral service until six months afterward.

BB:  Do you know what day that memorial service was?

FO:  I should know this, but I don’t.  I think it was around the 23rd or so of September.  I remember it was just a couple of days after A. J. was born and everybody was oohing and aahing over the baby.  I thought it was good, Audrey was a little bit overwhelmed by the memorial service and too many people poking and prodding at her new baby and wanted to hold him and all that stuff.  I found it somewhat uplifting just to see people kind of celebrate this new life and replace if you will, kind of closure of one life and beginning of another.

BB:  Then Dorothy received her husband’s wedding ring in December?

FO:  Yes.

BB:  Were you there when that happened or—

FO:  –no, I was at work and Audrey called me and said ‘guess what, they found Daddy’s ring.’  This was before that, they had just received word by phone that they had found his ring and it was going to be returned to her.  She was upset about it because it was a physical reminder; it was the first reminder that they had found his remains and it was difficult for her although I think it was a happy occasion also because it was the return of a gift.  There was something that her mother had prayed about and said if you can do anything, just find his wedding ring.  That’s what they found.  It was somewhat a nice thing and right before Christmas, kind of a nice holiday event.  Obviously not the best gift, but it was still an emotional thing because after the first holiday when someone passes away, every holiday whether it be a birthday, or Christmas or Thanksgiving, they are all difficult the first time because it’s the first time someone’s not there.

BB:  And then in February you said that there were remains that were returned?

FO:  Yes, they had a casket, and a flag draped over it and that was very hard because seeing the casket and the flag draped over it was again the first physical realization that it was an actual loss of Andy and that was hard.  I found that day to be very hard.  I actually was one of the pallbearers and I was honored to do that.  It was very nice and obviously very emotional because it was more like a funeral even happening six months later, it was a little bit of a closure but still it was very hard.  I found that harder than the memorial service to be honest with you because that seems to drive it home a little bit more than just a memorial service where people are making speeches.

BB:  When was the first time you visited the crash site?

FO:  That was on the one-year anniversary so it was September 11, 2002.  We all took a flight out to – and that was the first time if I recall correctly, that we had flown after September 11th.

BB:  How was that?

FO:  That was a little nerve wracking.  It was difficult to get on a plane after all that.  We had a one-year-old child and that was always a challenge on a plane, and it was bittersweet, it was, the support of the community was amazing, it was well organized.  We stayed at I believe it was a ski resort actually nearby. We took buses into the crash site, and it really didn’t appear to be a crash site because it was grown over; there were no charred trees or crater in the ground like you had seen on the news.  It was more of a just kind of like in a field, but I think the most powerful was the temporary memorial and people had written, and the crosses that were in the ground, and the angels and all that.  That was pretty emotional.

BB:  How long did you spend there?

FO:  It think it was a three or four day trip that we had gone out there for.  It was events the day before and then the day of, the tour I believe was on the day before and then on the day of, there was the ceremony where the president and Mrs. Bush came to say some words and place a wreath.  They actually went around to every family member and greeted each family member.

BB:  Did you meet the president?

FO:  Yes, that was quite an experience meeting the president first hand and holding a baby in one arm and shaking hands with the president in another.  It was interesting and I was actually quite impressed that he would go around to each family member and express his condolences. He is taller than I expected [chuckling].

BB:  Have you been back since?

FO:  I have not been back since.  We intend to go but in reality we were, our kids even today are still too young to kind of really appreciate what went on.  So we haven’t really been back.  We are very much looking forward to the memorial being officially in place and going back and seeing that and having some time with the kids to explain what went on.  In the meantime, I know it’s changed a little bit since we’ve been there.  It’s mostly I think for Audrey’s sake; she doesn’t really want to go.  I think it’s something that she probably more than I needs to get the strength to go back and see that.  She’s very much looking forward to the national memorial when it’s finalized.

BB:  Have you been following the memorialization process when the families of Flight 93 were formed and we began to form the task force and the federal advisory commission?  How do you feel about all this?

FO:  I only know of it through the mailings that we get and I think it’s all being done quite well.  I think it’s a tremendous amount of people who are putting their hearts into it and I think it’s very well done.  I saw the draft of the plans for the memorial and it looks like it will be fabulous when it’s finally completed.  It’s been a long time, almost five years now, so it’s understandably so, but it’s amazing that it’s five years gone and nothing’s finished yet, but that’s just the way these things work.  The World Trade Center site is not re-built yet and Pentagon site is not re-built yet, so as far as memorials…

BB:  Dorothy, Audrey’s mother, was involved in the selection; she was on the jury to choose the five designs from the 1,100 designs.  Did she talk about that to you?

FO:  Not to me.  She did, I believe, to Audrey.  She is, now that Andy’s gone, Audrey is much more closer to her family than I am.  Andy was the one I connected with, and he was the one I would chat with when we got together, and I talk with her brother some as well, but her mom and her sister, I’ll talk with them on the phone when they call, but they really mostly just talk to Audrey and I hear about it second hand through her.  I really wasn’t involved in that whole process. I knew she was doing it, and I think it was an honor she was selected to be on that judging panel, but it was mostly through Audrey that I would hear things about this and what eventually was going on.

BB:  What do you think the memorial will mean to your children?

FO:  When they are old enough to understand, I think it will be a while until they really obviously fully understand what went on and the fact that their grandfather was part of this whole thing.  I mean, it may not be until they are in high school when they are fully able to comprehend the historic events of that day, and what went on in that airplane.  All that A. J. knows is that his grandfather died on the plane crash but that’s the extent.  Unfortunately, none of them were alive when it happened and even if they were, they would be too young to comprehend on what’s going on.  I think as they get older and get into their teens they will probably find that this is something that they can be proud of their grandfather, even though they never actually knew that grandfather.  I think it will be a very positive thing for them even though they don’t have an emotional attachment to him as they never knew him.  Take it from us; he was brave before they were born.

BB:  What do you feel is the long-term impact of September 11th and Flight 93?

FO:  Well, I think it still is kind of the untold story of, since there were no visual images of the events that were recorded by the media, I always felt that it took kind of a back seat to the World Trade Center and the Pentagon just in terms of the media coverage.  I also feel that the way the media covered at the time for at least maybe the first year, that it was really only a few select individuals on that plane that were given credit, but now that I think the movies have come out and people are more aware of what really happened as opposed to the way the media painted these four individuals that rushed the cockpit were the heroes, but in reality that it was kind of a group thing and I think at least I hope that in any future events that may happen that people will be given the courage to rise up against anybody who tries to do a hijacking or anything like that.

I think that showed that the terrorists don’t always win and you could actually step in and do something about it.  That to me is hopefully the long-term thing that you don’t have to sit back and take it from these people, that you can really make a difference by being, the best defense is a bit offense, as they say in football lots, so I think that holds true very much for things like this.  I hope that Flight 93 will always be remembered.

BB:  There has been some speculation that Andy on the plane might have been able to help land it, because of his knowledge of airplanes.  Can you speak about that?

FO:  Well, I know he served in the International Guard when he was young, and that is what I always hoped that as I replay the events in my mind, I wish it had turned out that they were able to re-take control of the plane and land it somehow, and Andy could have helped out with that with his knowledge of airplanes, at least with either communications or knowledge of how airplanes work.  Kelly actually has a pilot’s license, and I’m sure Andy was very involved in her learning how to fly, so I’m sure he had the knowledge of airplanes.  To this day, I still wish that is what happened that they were able to re-take control and land the plane.  He had quite a bit of knowledge about machinery and the airline industry, having worked for United.

BB:  We don’t know exactly what happened on that plane.  We have bits and pieces of knowledge but we don’t know the full extent of what happened.  Given his personality and knowing him a little bit, what do you feel he might have contributed to that event?

FO:  I am fairly certain in my heart that, am very certain in my heart, that he was one of the people who at least tried to rally people to do something.  Being a very religious man, I know he was probably involved in reciting the Lord’s Prayer that some individuals did, before they decided to try to re-take the plane and you know, I’m hoping, in fact I know, that he was one of the ones at the front of the plane when it finally went down. I don’t know if he was in the cockpit or just helping to try to re-take the plane or try to get the few remaining terrorists that were back in the cabin fighting with them or whatever, but that was something that—

BB:  –he was physically fit?

FO:  Yes.

BB:  Strong?

FO:  Um hum, yeah.  Like I said, he was a little bit of a shorter stature, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t capable of putting up a fight.

BB:  That would have been in his nature to do that?

FO:  Yeah, he was not prone to violence by any chance, but I think in his mind he would be so driven to see his family again and see his daughter give birth, that I think he would be absolutely determined to try to do something about it and not sit back and hope the terrorists don’t do something bad.  That wouldn’t have been him; if he had known that other things were going on with the other planes in terms of being flown into buildings, then he wouldn’t have taken it sitting down. He would have done something about it.  I’m sure he was one of the people that rushed the cockpit some way or another.

BB:  Is there anything else that you would like to talk about or anything else you would like to add?

FO:  I think, first of all this has been a very good opportunity for me to be involved in this because so much of the media and the attention has been on Dorothy, and her family has kind of been secondary, particularly because it was her husband that was on the flight and they focused on her, but the rest of the family has really not been given too many opportunities and that’s just the way the media works really.  They kind of just focus on the main individual that was related to the person and then other people were kind of in the outskirts.

This has been a great opportunity to actually – this is my first interview for having lost somebody, because most people view it as Dorothy lost somebody or Audrey lost somebody, but it was me too.  This is the first that I have really been able to express that.

BB:  You lost a father-in-law?

FO:  Yes.

BB:  And someone you felt—

FO:  –connected to, I think we both had very similar personalities.  I think we both were very humorous people; we like to joke around; we were very much into people and relating to people and treat uppers with dignity and respect, and not feeling like you only give people respect when they give it to you. You kind of pay it to others first I think was one of his main values and it is one of mine too.

BB:  So you lost someone who you thought you were going to spend many years with?

FO:  Yeah, yeah.  To me he was one of my favorite people in her family.  Everybody was involved and had their favorites, and he was definitely one of my favorites.  I can’t think of what else there is to say.  I think that one of the things that angers me the most are the conspiracy theories; and believe that the plane was shot down, who believe that the whole thing was a plot of the U. S. government and all that.

I read that in one of the reviews when I was reading the reviews of Flight 93 on, I think it was Net flex, and one person wrote that this is all a joke because we all know the plane was shot down, and I just can’t believe that somebody could be mentally ignorant of the facts in the case, but dishonor the memories of the people who were on that flight by believing in some kind of conspiracy theory of people on the ground. That’s not what the majority of people believe, but it’s still people are so disregarding of the facts and want to believe their own little theories, but to me it’s a bit of a disgrace that even the fact that there was a bomb on the ground at the Pentagon because there was no actual footage of the plane going into the Pentagon, just some snapshots, but to me, that’s kind of a disgrace to the whole event that you would believe that the government would do something like that.  It kind of defiles the memory of the people who lost their lives.  I likened it to people who don’t believe the Holocaust ever happened.  It just baffles me that there are intelligent people out there who are actually unintelligent people [chuckling] who actually believe that.  That seems to be out a little bit more recently especially with the Flight 93 movies.  I seen that recently on the Internet, and people have a different version of the whole thing.

I just wish there were some more of a closure in terms of finding Bin Laden, end to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and I know those are a long way away, but I think that feeling gives a little more openness to the whole thing that there are still some people out there that were responsible for them that haven’t been punished.  That’s another thing that bothers me.  I do look forward to the memorial.

BB:  What do you think we should be telling people at the memorial, visitors in the future?

FO:  I think that what you said earlier was that we don’t really know exactly what happened, we never will know exactly what happened, but here are the facts, here is what was said on the transcripts and here’s what the physical evidence suggests and that people can draw their own conclusions, but the facts point toward a story that we can make sense of.  I think that some people would ignore those facts and they probably still will.  There will always be people who will, but to tell a story based on the facts.  You know, there’s always going to be gaps in those facts, but constant conjecture to be made, but I think since some things, some of those transcripts with some of those conversations that were classified for so long, are available to people to read about and I think that will tell the true story of heroism that went on this plane, but also to remember those that were on that instead of folks who are pointing fingers on how it could have been prevented.  I think that’s another waste of energy. I think they should spend more time remembering those who were on there and moving forward instead of looking backward and pointing fingers.  I think this memorial project will help with that in terms of telling exactly what happened and creating a true story of heroism that is supported by factual evidence as opposed to conjecture.  There will always be some conjecture because all the facts aren’t known, but that would be my hope, and of course I may come up with something else to say later. [chuckling]

BB:  Is there anything else that you would like to add?

FO:  I don’t think so at this point.

BB:  I want to thank you very much on behalf of the project and the memorial and all the people that are working on the memorial for your help in giving more of the story, giving the side of the Garcia family and your part in that family.  We so appreciate your giving us an interview.

FO:  Thank you for the opportunity.

BB:  Thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW

FLIGHT 93 NATIONAL MEMORIAL

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH:  Nancy Bingham

CONNECTION TO FLIGHT 93:  aunt of Flight 93 passenger Mark Bingham

INTERVIEWER:  Barbara Black

INTERVIEWER DATE:  October 23, 2006

LOCATION:  Nancy Bingham’s home in Palm Springs, Florida

INTERVIEW LENGTH:  1 audio cassette

TRANSCRIBER:  Suzanne Heller

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

BB:  This is an interview with Nancy Bingham of Palm Springs, Florida, Aunt of Mark Bingham.  This interview is being conducted on October 23, 2006, at Nancy’s home.  The interviewer is Barbara Black representing the Oral History Project of the Flight 93 National Memorial.

BB:  What is your name, please?

NB:  Nancy Bingham.

BB:  And what is your age?

NB:  Fifty.

BB:  And [slight pause] have you lived in this area long?

NB:  I’ve lived in South Florida since I was 12; working from, from Miami working my way north, hoping to go further [slight chuckle].

BB:  And what is your occupation?

NB:  I am a letter carrier.

BB:  And you are married, you are married to –

NB:  - I’m not married –

BB:  - you’re not –

NB:  - any longer.  I was married to Jerry’s brother, Dick.

BB:  Okay.  And can you tell me a little bit about your, um, how you got into the Bingham family?

NB:  Um, I was working for Jerry, when he ran the Sambo’s Restaurant in Boca Raton, Florida and that’s how I met his brother and that’s when he and I married and, um [short pause], we were married in ’74 and our son was born in ’76, Craig, that you’ll be interviewing later and we were divorced but, um [long pause], everybody in the family liked me better [hearty chuckle].  They all kept me [slight chuckle].

BB:  So, you remained a part of the family?

NB:  Oh, yeah.  Yep.

BB:  And, of course, you’ve had a son –

NB:  - Uh, huh –

BB:  - who was cousin to –

NB:  - well, we call him Little Jerry, still.  It’s hard for me to say Mark.  We, we’ve always called him Little Jerry but, yeah, Mark and, and Craig are cousins.

BB:  And, how did you come to know Mark?  When did you first know him?

NB:  He was, I think, um [short pause], I think he was four or five the first time, uh, we went on a family vacation together.  Um, Jerry and Nicky and Kelly and Little Jerry and, um, we didn’t have Craig yet, but Dick and I, we all drove out to, um, Arizona for a vacation because that’s where Jerry’s family was originally from.  We went out there to see aunts and uncles and his grandparents and we all piled into their big yellow [slight pause] Cadillac and drove all the way out there with Kelly and Little Jerry stepping all over my feet in the back seat [slight chuckle].

BB:  So, did you meet Jerry, Little Jerry, when you went to Arizona or was he already here?

NB:  He was already here.  That was my, that’s my first big recollection of all of us ever being together.  I’m, I’m certain I probably met him prior to that, at a, at a home family gathering but [slight pause] that’s one of my, uh, that’s one of the big things that we all did together that I remember the most and when they were that little.

BB:  What were your recollections of him as a little boy?

NB:  His hair was too long [slight chuckle].  He had very long hair.  He was, um, he was loud; he was loud and boisterous but, um, but other than that, he was sweet kid.  He was a good kid.

BB:  And he played with Kelly?

NB:  Yeah.  Yeah, they got along; they were like thick as thieves for years and years.  They spent a lot of time together [short pause] probably from the age of maybe three or four ‘til, I think, maybe seven or eight [another short pause] because that’s probably when he went – see, I don’t know the dates, I don’t, when he went out to California.

BB:  When he was living in Florida, Jerry was able to see him quite a bit?

NB:  I think, yeah, he did.  Yeah, when he and Mickey got married, they, it seems like Jerry was with them every weekend.

BB:  And how often did you see him, then?

NB:  When they were that little, not as often.  It, uh, I mean, we did our, the family vacations together.  We did family holidays and birthdays and stuff like that [slight pause] but, um, when he was that little, not [another slight pause], you know, it wasn’t as often as they, as they spent time with him.

BB:  And then when he, when he and his mother moved to California [slight pause], you didn’t see him as often?

NB:  No, because he, uh, how old was he that one time he came?  He was like 13 or 14 and I don’t even know how it is that he got, he was here visiting [short pause] and we were not even; I wasn’t even living here in Palm Springs but we all met together at the Palm Springs Pizza Place; my son, Kelly, Little Jerry and Jerry, and, um, he was here visiting and I, I don’t, I’m thinking he was like maybe 13 or 14 years old; he was real tall and gangly [slight chuckle].

BB:  And can you tell me about what he was like at that age?

NB:  Well, I didn’t know him that well at that age.  You know, I mean, he’s always been the personable person.  You know, he just makes everybody around him, everybody likes him.  He’s just got that kind of a personality.  He doesn’t say or do anything to make anybody dislike him whatsoever and I think he’s probably started that at that young age.

BB:  And as he was growing up from 13 [slight pause], did you have occasions to see him them?

NB:  Um [short pause], he was here for his dad’s 50th birthday [long pause] and, I’m trying to think how old he was then [slight pause] because Craig was, Craig wasn’t, Craig was still a teenager.  Craig was probably only 16 [long pause], so Little Jerry must’ve been 19, 20, 21, something like that and he was here for that party and, um, he just, he was just growing into himself and he [short pause], he was like the highlight of the party.  I mean, everybody, you know, everybody wanted to see Jerry’s son and he was so personal; he’s so friendly and nice and kind to everybody, old and young; old and young.

BB:  So, you just saw him occasionally for certain, um –

NB:  - Uh, huh –

BB:  - for certain functions or certain reasons, you saw him?  You didn’t see him over long stretches of time?

NB:  I did not, no.  It was then, it was after his dad’s birthday party, um [slight pause], and then when his dad married Karen, he was here, of course, for that wedding.  He was Jerry’s Best Man and, um, and we started e-mailing.  He started e-mailing me, back and forth and, um, you know, you don’t save e-mails; I wish I had but I didn’t.  Um, -

BB:  - What, what, why was he e-mailing?

NB:  Just, you know, he was just telling me things that was going on his life, um [short pause], silly jokes that he would just e-mail to everybody and then he would make comments like, you know, be careful, I don’t know, I don’t even know how to do it on the computer, when you send something to everybody on the list and a couple of times, he’d say, he would say, be careful what you send back because my aunt got a copy of this too [chuckle], but I wish, like I said, I wished I had saved those e-mails because that was, you know, a year and a half or so, you know, from when Jerry got married, so.

BB:  Jerry got married in 2000?

NB:  He did, I think it was November of 2000.

BB:  And that’s when you, more or less, started hearing from, um, him by e-mail?

NB:  Yep.  He sent me a postcard when he was in, um [slight pause], where’s that place you go to fight the bulls?

BB:  Oh, um, Palermo, Spain?

NB:  He was there and he had sent me a postcard from there and I didn’t save it [slight chuckle].  You know, you know.

BB:  And what struck you about him, in, in a, you said he was very friendly, um, what else about him?

NB:  For me personally, his acceptance, you know, I mean, because we didn’t know each other that well as he was growing up but then when, you know, he was here for the birthday party and then when he was here for the wedding and then, you know, the, the [short pause] making the point of, of the communication, he didn’t have to do any of that, you know, and, um [short pause] and also, he was very good to my son [another short pause] and that means a lot to me too; I mean, you know, he, you know, there was some family quabbles at the wedding with my son and his ex-wife and, and well, Little Jerry just kind of took over and, you know, protected my son and that means, that means a lot to me.

BB:  He had a protective nature about him?

NB:  Um, yes.

BB:  And you saw that in him?

NB:  Oh, sure, yep.

BB:  Are there any stories that the family has related or that you have –

NB:  - I am so bad at this Barbara and I’m so, I apologize so much ‘cause I don’t, I don’t [slight pause], I’ll remember all kinds of stuff after you’re gone.  Kelly’s the one up there that probably can’t shut up [hearty chuckle] ‘cause she remembers every little tiny detail about everything –

BB:  - That’s great, that’s good –

NB:  - Yeah, but I just, you know, I just remember the [short pause] that vacation to Arizona was ay, yay, yay ‘cause they were little.  It was like, oh my goodness; there’s too many people in this car-

BB:  - and keeping little ones occupied –

NB:  - Uh, huh; uh, huh; yeah.

BB:  Now, tell me about Jerry?  He’s your brother-in-law.

NB:  Uh, huh and my best friend.  We’ve always; he’s –

BB:  - when, and you said you met Jerry –

NB:  - I went to work for him –

BB:  - worked for him –

NB:  - when I was 17 –

BB:  - When you, you were 17.  Do you know what year that was?

NB:  ’73 or 2, ’72, ’73, something like that –

BB:  - Uh, huh –

NB:  - Uh, huh.  Yep.  He was running the Sambo’s in, in Boca Raton, Florida.  Um, -

BB:  - What was he like to work for?

NB:  Oh!  I’d rather talk about the friendship [hearty chuckle] –

BB:  - Oh, all right, all right –

NB:  He was, he was, he was very, he was tough because he was very customer-oriented.  Um, the customer was never wrong [slight pause] and he didn’t care; he was [another slight pause], he was all about the customers.  He had one of the, the most successful restaurants, Sambo of chains, going, ‘cause he was like that; he was all about the customers.  And he was, um [short pause], he was tough, I mean, you know, I didn’t mind it; he taught me a lot.  I mean, even, even now, in what I do now, my, you know, my customer service to my customers; it’s I’m all about that and he taught me that.  You know and he was crazy then as he is now [slight chuckle].

BB:  And you met his brother?

NB:  Uh, huh.

BB:  And that’s, and you, you, uh, formed a closer relationship with Jerry?

NB:  Uh, after the divorce, yeah, we were just always good friends.  We just always, we always were able to talk to each other and we stayed friends, I mean, with the kids because with me being divorced and then, um, his brother was driving trucks cross-country type thing; so, you know, Jerry was like a surrogate father to Craig.  You know, he was, he was always here and, um [slight pause], you know, we just stayed that close and then, you know, Jerry and his relationship with his daughter, Kelly, and [short pause] we just kept, we just kept on it like a family; we never really stopped.

BB:  And you said Jerry was your best friend or is your best friend?

NB:  Yep, yep; he has been for a long time.  Lately, um, not so much but [hearty chuckle] he’s so wrapped up in all of his Flight 93 stuff, you know.  I don’t think it’s quite so healthy for him.

BB:  Did he talk about [long pause] Mark, Little Jerry, um, when Mark was, when he was married to Alice, for that brief time?

NB:  Um, yeah, I imagine that he did [long pause] but as far as remembering specific things, no, I’m terrible at that.  I don’t remember.

BB:  That’s all right [slight chuckling between Barbara and Nancy].  Can I take you to September 11th?  How did your day start on September 11th?

NB:  Um, I went to work [short pause]; went to work and, uh, we were on the work group floor and somebody had a, um, one of those little portable televisions, the five-inch black and white, and, um [slight pause], they had it, you know, of course, that whatever they were watching, it flashed to the news with the planes going into the Towers.  But, you know, I just went about my business and cased my mail and loaded my truck and went, hit the road.

BB:  It, it didn’t have much relevance to you at that point?

NB:  No, not in New York City; not, you know, I mean, I knew what was happening; it was terrible but and then at that point, that was still early in the day, in the morning and they didn’t really know anything.  All they knew was that planes went in; they didn’t know anything about terrorists or anything at that point.

BB:  So, you’re going about your day.  You’re, you’re delivering mail –

NB:  - Yeah and I got done.  I had finished my sixth building and I was driving [short pause] to the next one when my cell phone rang and it was, um [slight pause], Jerry’s wife, Karen [another slight pause], and telling me that Little Jerry was on the flight that went into – at this time, I must’ve known about Pennsylvania [short pause]; maybe I had the radio on because, no I didn’t, because I said, “What do you mean?,” you know, “The planes that went into the Towers,” and she said, “No, there was another plane that, that went down in Pennsylvania.”  And then, of course, you do all that, “Are you sure?”  You know, “How do you know?  How do you know he was on that plane?”  You know, ask all those questions.

BB:  Disbelief?

NB:  Uh, huh.  I have a good friend that lives in Pittsburgh and I called her figuring that she would have, um, you know, local news and she could tell me, you know, like, no, that really didn’t happen and not the way Karen said it to me and [slight sigh], but it did.

BB:  So, Karen had gave you the news?

NB:  Uh, huh.

BB:  And, and then, what did you do?

NB:  Um, I drove back to the office –

BB:  - Did you have more routes to finish?

NB:  Oh, yeah.  I still had 14 buildings to deliver.

BB:  And did you, did you finish those?

NB:  No.  No; I drove back to the office and, um, one of the other girls, actually, one of my supervisors and one of the other girls that work in the office, they, one drove my truck home and then drove me home and I came home here and, um, and Kelly had a job at the time but I was afraid to call her because I knew how she would react.  I called Mickey to ask her if she thought I should; I told her what happened, of course, and then I asked her, “Should I call Kelly or should I go there and tell her?” and she suggested I go there to tell her and that’s what I did.

BB:  Had Jerry talked to you at this point yet or was it just Karen?

NB:  Nope.  I didn’t speak to Jerry until the next day when Kelly and I walked into his house.

BB:  So, on the 11th, you went to tell Kelly –

NB:  - I went and told her [short pause] and, um, she’s so intuitive [dog barks in background] – is that the right word? [dog barks again] – [In a whisper says she needs to go out].  She’s so intuit-, she is so intuitive that, um, as soon as I walked in the door, she knew it and she looked right at me and she said, “It’s Little Jerry, isn’t it?”  You know, I mean, at this point, she knew it was [dog barks again], at this point, it was [long pause], it was probably, um [short pause], I don’t know, maybe noon time.  So, everybody knew that about the Towers and the Pentagon and, and, you know, uh, the field.  So, she knew all that was happening as soon as I walked through the door.  I mean, I didn’t say a word.  She is a receptionist; she was like right there when I walked in [deep sigh].  So [slight sigh] –

BB:  - And it was difficult for her?

NB:  Oh, it was bad [short pause].  Yeah, she went in the bathroom for a good 45 minutes.  You couldn’t even get her out.

BB:  She had a close relationship with Little Jerry?

NB:  Uh, huh; yeah.  So, I brought her back here [very long pause]; hmmm, I can’t even remember where she was living at the time because I think she just spent the night with me and we got up early the next morning and drove up to Jerry’s.  Her mom must’ve kept the kids ‘cause we didn’t take any of the kids with us [long pause] and that was our, I mean that night, we just, we did nothing.  We just sat on the couch [dog barks again] and stared at each other [very long pause] and that was it.

BB:  And then, the next day –

NB:  - we got up early and just drove up to Jerry’s.  It was a three-hour drive.

BB:  To Wildwood?

NB:  Uh, huh; yep.

BB:  And what did you find there?

NB:  [Clears throat and slight pause] I’m trying to think who was there [clears throat again] besides Karen and Jerry.  I walked in through the back door and Jerry was standing in the kitchen [short pause] and, um [long pause], he just broke down when he saw us [another long pause] and it seemed like we spent the whole day doing nothing but watching TV and it was the same thing over and over and over again.  That was, it was just so, I don’t know, you, you didn’t want to watch it but you couldn’t not watch it; that type of thing and then they were making plans to fly to Pittsburgh and that was really bothering me ‘cause I didn’t, I didn’t want him to get on a plane.  You know, but, you know [long pause].

BB:  They wanted to go?

NB:  Oh, yeah, somebody did (can’t decipher name); yep, yep.

BB:  So, you stayed there how long?

NB:  I went Wednesday [short pause].  I think we stayed until Saturday because I think that’s the day that he left [long pause].  I think that’s the day that he flew out; early in the morning since they came to pick him up; it was still dark out and, um, and then I think Kelly and I came home that afternoon [long pause], pretty sure.

BB:  And what happened in those days that you were there with him?

NB:  All we did was sit in that living room and watch TV.  That was it; it just seemed; it’s all we did.  A lot of his family from Arizona called; well, all of his family from Arizona called; um, friends that they hadn’t heard from in a while, um, but, no, we did nothing.  We didn’t do anything.

BB:  Did you, did you talk as a family about Little Jerry?

NB:  Um, I’m sure did [dog barks again].  I’m sure; we did a lot of crying and in tears and [slight pause] reminiscing [long pause]; there was a lot of that.  It was more so; I think we did that more, later on.  You know, like when we had our own private family memorial [slight pause], um [short pause], it was, we did more of it then.  That, those first few days were just [long pause], I don’t even know that anybody even changed clothes.  We just slept wherever they happened to be; that, you know, it was just so strange; it was very sad.

BB:  And Jerry and Karen and left on Saturday -

NB:  - Uh, huh –

BB:  - for Pittsburgh and you came home -

NB:  - Uh, huh –

BB:  - with Kelly?

NB:  Yep [long pause], yep.

BB:  What happened then?

NB:  We just; we had to go on with our lives.  You know, I went back to work and one of the, one of the guys that I work with, his nephew was in the Towers; didn’t work there, he was there that morning; he was a computer repair man and he was there [slight pause], you know, he’s never there.  He was there doing a job.  Um [very long pause] but we just went on and we, I mean, we talked to Jerry every day and then he started planning, you know, our family memorial.  I think he had gone to Pittsburgh twice before we did that though.  See, I lose track of how the events happened.  Um, yeah, I’m, I’m pretty sure that he had been up there twice already [very long pause] but that was his aunts and his cousins, his nephews from Arizona all came.

BB:  To this family memorial?  And can you tell me when that was?  Do you remember?

NB:  I would have to look that up.

BB:  Okay.

NB:  I don’t remember.

BB:  Can you tell me about the memorial itself; the service itself?

NB:  Ours?

BB:  Yes.

NB:  Um [long pause], we held, we held it at, um, the Moose Club because, well, they offered us their room and it held everybody.  Um [short pause], a few people, a few local dignitaries got up and spoke.  Um, Kelly got up and spoke, the best she could and [dog barks again] [whispers sorry underneath her breath] and, um, he wants to go down in his tutu [referring to the dog].  Um, it was very, it was so, it was very emotional, the actual service part of it.  Um, and I think Jerry got up and spoke too [very long pause] and I know that’s hard; I know it was hard for him.  He’s still like that, though.  He still can’t [short pause], he can’t really say much without breaking down.  That’s why I’m concerned for him, about him but, um –

BB:  - Did it take place here, in Palm Springs?

NB:  What’s that?

BB:  The memorial.

NB:  No, it was up in Wildwood.  It was up in Wildwood.  It was, um, the Moose Lodge there and then, um, it was all on Jerry’s; have you been to Jerry’s home yet?

BB:  No.  We’ll be going in a few days.

NB:  When you see how big his yard is; there was hundreds of people there.  I can only hold 20 [hearty chuckle] but then that was in his yard.

BB:  And he [short pause], how was Jerry doing then?

NB:  He was probably doing better then than he is now, I would say.  He’s so, he’s so consumed with everything and, and he gets, um [short pause], he gets so worked up, you know, like when things, you know, like with, when they were planning the site, planning the temporary, the permanent memorial and things, you know, I mean, things just don’t go even-keeled when you’re doing something like that, you know, especially to that magnitude and he would get so angry and, and, you know, if somebody was against it, I guess there was a person or two that [slight pause] for some reason, doesn’t think we should do that and he can’t understand, you know, if you don’t see his opin-, his way then, but, um, I don’t know.  He’s not, his health isn’t the best, right now [long pause] and it concerns, it concerns all of us.

BB:  And he’s still very focused on Flight 93 and the memorial that’s to be built?

NB:  Everything about it, yes; every little thing.

BB:  He visits fairly frequently, for someone who lives so far away.

NB:  He was there; well, we were all there for; I was with him for the first anniversary.

BB:  Is that the first time you visited the crash site?

NB:  Yeah, the first anniversary.  Um, two of his cousins from Arizona and his Aunt May were there [short pause].  Um [long pause], Karen, one of her daughters [slight pause], it seems like there was someone else, Aunt May, hmmm.  Well, that was the first, the first year and that was the first time I had gone and then, actually this year, I thought that we were going to ‘cause Little Jerry’s birthday’s in May and, um, I had taken the time off around his birthday because we had originally, I thought we had planned, as a family, that, ‘cause Craig and Kelly, neither one had been out there yet, up there yet and I thought that that’s what Jerry and I had discussed; that we would go up there in May for his birthday and take Craig and Kelly and then, I don’t know, something happened where he said he couldn’t do that but I had already had my vacation time planned.  So, I went up there anyways ‘cause I have a friend that lives up there, a good friend, and she took me [slight pause] out to the site [slight chuckle].  So, it was just her and I up there.  But, um, then he ended up making the, the big plans to go for the fifth anniversary.  So, he was up there and then he got very sick; he was in the hospital but Kelly and Craig did get to go.  So, they’ve been there and they saw.

BB:  When you went up in May [slight pause] of this year; that had been the first time you were back since the first anniversary?

NB:  Yes.

BB:  Um, can you tell me your thoughts about what, um, it was when you were there?

NB:  It looked completely different to me.  The grass was all grown over, um [short pause], the actual, you know, the temporary memorial site, that’s all the same, with all the stuff and [slight pause] all the people that go there but, it was just that one little, you know, what is it, as big as this room maybe; I guess it’s bigger, but, it looks small compared to those fields and everything but it just –

BB:  - Oh, the shelter?

NB:  Uh, huh.

BB:  Oh, it’s very small.

NB:  No, not the building itself but just where the, where all the flags –

BB:  - the temporary memorial.  Yes, it’s not very big -

NB:  - Yeah, but it was just, it just looks so different to me, all, it looked pristine; all grown, grass is green and it was cold, though; cold and windy like it had been every time I’ve been there [slight chuckle].

BB:  Uh, huh.  It’s always windy.

NB:  Yeah.

BB:  And did you go down to the crash site –

NB:  - Nuh, uh –

BB:  - while you were there?

NB:  No; I, I stayed up on top; just where the barriers are and I listened to, um [long pause] –

BB:  - one of the ambassadors?

NB:  Yeah, I can, is that what they, they’re called?

BB:  That’s what we call them, ambassadors.

NB:  Yep; she was very knowledgeable and she spoke very well and, you know, I read the, um, oh, what was that transcript that they have –

BB:  - The transcript from the, uh, -

NB:  - from the –

BB:  - cockpit voice recorder?

NB:  Yeah [short pause]; there wasn’t really much on that; so, I was [long pause] and then we went and drove through the little town and [short pause] it is so quaint and so beautiful and actually, I have a customer that lives up there, um, the Crouse’s, Anita Crouse, and Mr. Crouse past away this year.  But, they’re snowbirds, they live in one of my buildings but I realized it one day, you know, it was during the season and I’m delivering mail and I, I see this newspaper from Somerset [short pause].  So, I checked it; I mean there’s plenty of Somerset’s but sure enough, it was Somerset, Pennsylvania.  So, of course I had to go strike up a good ol’ conversation with them and got close to them.  It was sad when I heard that he passed away [deep sigh] and heard their daughter go, went to school with Wally’s daughter.  What’s Wally’s last name?

BB:  Miller.

NB:  Miller.  That’s pretty easy.

BB:  Uh, huh.  I guess we’re at the end of the tape.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B

BB:  You were talking about visiting the temporary memorial in May.

NB:  Uh, huh.  Yep and actually it was nice going up there.  Not that I wouldn’t want to go with my family but it was nice being with my friend too and just being able to stay there as long as I wanted to and [slight pause], um [another slight pause], and I enjoyed walking through the town too.  We, we went to the chapel but we were too late; they had already closed [short pause] so I didn’t get to do that [another short pause] go inside there.

BB:  Did you [short pause] find out about the plans for a permanent memorial while you were there?

NB:  Oh, I had known about that.  I get, I get the newsletters from there and I also subscribe on the, um, on the internet and, of course, I, I knew it from Jerry too [slight pause] and I had picked up the plan that they chose too.

BB:  You did?

NB:  I did, yeah.  I like that one [slight chuckle].

BB:  And can you tell me your thoughts about the permanent memorial?

NB:  I can’t wait.  I can’t wait for it.  From the very beginning I always considered that, you know, that, that their resting place; that, that’s where it should be and, um, I can’t wait for it to be done [short pause] and just from the plans and, and what you read about it, it’s, it’s going to be beautiful.  I can’t wait.

BB:  We will be developing, uh, an interpretive plan for the memorial, um, that will help, will guide us in telling the story.  Is there, do you have any comments or anything that you would like [short pause] especially to be told at the memorial to all the visitors that are coming?

NB:  I don’t think I’m the one to do that, to say that.  I, um [slight pause], between his sister and his dad and, of course, his mother too, um, they could probably better [short pause], I don’t know, you know, I mean I do have my feelings; I have my love and my, um [long pause] respect for him.  He was moved; he was someone to be respected but, um, it’s nothing that anybody else and I already said over and over again because that’s what he, that’s how he came across to everyone.

BB:  How would you like him to be remembered?

NB:  [Deep sigh] I wouldn’t want it to be too serious.  I really, I mean, he is, he could be a serious person but he was just so fun-loving and, and enjoyed life and enjoyed his life and his, life of the, his family around him.  He was just [slight pause], you know, and I know people say that after someone’s past, “Oh, you know, they were the most wonderful person,” but he was [hearty chuckle].  So –

BB:  - He had a successful business?

NB:  He did, as far as I knew, yeah.  I mean, he was getting ready to open in New York.  He already had it opened in California.  I don’t know enough, much about that business stuff.

BB:  But when he was with the family, he was [long pause] fun.

NB:  Fun.  Always fun [short pause], except when he was protecting Craig [slight chuckle].

BB:  Is there anything else you’d like to add or talk about?

NB:  I don’t think so.  I think, um, your questions covered just about everything.

BB:  Well, I want to thank you very much for adding a little bit more to –

NB:  - I appreciate the opportunity –

BB:  - well, thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW

FLIGHT 93 NATIONAL MEMORIAL

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH:  Shirley Adderly

CONNECTION TO FLIGHT 93:  biological mother of Flight 93 flight attendant CeeCee Lyles

INTERVIEWER:  Kathie Shaffer

INTERVIEWER DATE:  October 23, 2006

LOCATION:  Adderly home in Ft. Pierce, Florida

INTERVIEW LENGTH:    audio cassettes

TRANSCRIBER:  Janet Lydic

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

KS:  This is an interview with Shirley Adderly at Ft. Pierce, Florida.  Shirley is the mother of United Airlines Flight 93 Flight Attendant, Cee Cee Ross Lyles.  This interview is being conducted on October 23, 2006 at Shirley’s home in Ft. Pierce, Florida.  The interviewer is Kathie Shaffer representing the Oral History Project of the Flight 93 National Memorial.

KS:  Shirley, will you tell me how old you are?

SA:  Yes, I’m fifty five years old.

KS:  And where do you live?

SA:  I live here in Ft. Pierce, Florida.  I was born here, and raised here, all my life.  I only lived away from here a very short amount of time, so, born and bred.

KS:  I know your family has deep roots here.  Will you tell me a little bit about your parents and your siblings?

SA:  Yes.  I have, um, my parents were, are Jessie and Pinky Mills.  They moved here from Georgia; I think they met here in Florida and married here, had twelve children, seven boys and five girls.  Ten of us are still living, right here, most of us right here in Ft. Pierce.

KS:  Will you tell me about your education?

SA:  Yes, I went to school here in Ft. Pierce, um, through eleventh grade.  Became pregnant at a young age, actually finished high school in Miami, Florida, and moved back to Ft. Pierce, worked a couple of years at Sun Bank, which is now Sun Trust Bank and saved enough money to go to school for one quarter, just wanted to go to college to see how it was.  All of my friends had gone to college, and I just wanted to get up there and just see what happened at college.  So, I saved enough money to go to college for one quarter, went to Tallahassee, Florida, A&M University.  After I went there for the one quarter, I was able to get loans and grants and, um I didn’t really want to stay, but I got the loans and grants and I called my family, um, you know, had deep respect for my parents.  My Mother was a beautiful lady that you could not help but respect.  I mean, the way she raised us, commanded respect and love and honor.  I had great parents.  Called my Mother to tell her I wanted to leave school and she had me to call my older sisters and brothers, and, um, they talked me into staying.  And, I was blessed to get the money that I needed to continue my education and have a B.S. Degree in Accounting from Florida, A&M University.

KS:  Will you tell me about your career then, with your Accounting Degree?  Where did you go?  What did you do?

SA:  Yes.  I came home.  My Mother was still living here in Ft. Pierce.  And, I don’t know if anybody mentioned that we grew up not having a lot; basically poor people.  And my Mother really, really struggled to raise all of these children; my Mother and Father, but my Father was in the Army and became ill.  And, so my Mother really, really worked hard to make sure that her children got at least a high-school education.  So I really wanted to return home, I don’t know if anybody mentioned, I mean, we just loved my Mother and, you know, I came home and that was my goal to help support her.  And, you know, my dream was not to, to be, not to have things, the necessities of life, the basic necessities of life and to make sure for her, in her later years.  So I came back to Ft. Pierce, not really the smartest move if you want to, you know, get a really good job.  But I came back and, um, applied for a couple of jobs and, um, didn’t really get to use the Accounting Degree.  I went to work for the State of Florida, eventually.  And after being there for ten years, I thought it wouldn’t be a good thing to move, you know.  Just work and do your best and again, to just almost start liking the job, too.  So I worked there here at Ft. Pierce for about twelve years.  Later on I married and I think after about twelve-to-thirteen years, I moved with the State, became a blessing for me, the State of Florida.  But it’s called the Department of Children and Families, now.  I started out in social work, and worked in the field of child support for a few years, then returned to social work.  Working for the State of Florida, after being married, and my husband worked for Florida Power and Light Company, we were able to move to different places in the State, in the South, and just, I could go wherever, wherever I went, I could get a job, I could transfer and work, so.

KS:  You could work in the State System?

SA:  Right, so, it was really a blessing that I did work for the State of Florida at that time, maybe with any company, many companies I could have done that, but it just worked out to be a blessing with the State of Florida.   Anyway, we moved back to Ft. Pierce in 1993, 1991, and, of course, I transferred back and was able to work with the State, and got a few promotions, um, after a few years, and was able to work as a Specialist in the Program Office for this local area, where I did training for people who do public assistance work; Food Stamps and Cash Assistance; we trained them on policy.  And later on, I became the Quality Assurance Specialist, but, um, supervised their Program Office for a few years, but just did, just a vast array of different things for the Department of Children and Families.

KS:  And I know you mentioned last evening that you recently retired.

SA:  Yep, I’ve been working since I was fourteen-years old.  I was a waitress, started at fourteen as a waitress and, um, when I moved back to Ft. Pierce from Miami, I was a waitress, again, on Florida’s Turnpike, at the restaurants there.  And, um, went to school, didn’t work while I was in school.  As soon as I came back to Ft. Pierce, as soon as I could get a job, I was working again, and I worked for the State for thirty-two years.  And, um, my husband and I, in 1997, had adopted a son.  And, we had like discussed it back then that I would not work when it was time for him to go to school.  I would make myself available to support him and make sure for him and his education, so I worked a couple of years beyond what we had talked about, but this summer, well in May, May 31st, I retired.  I’m happy I did.  I think it’s a blessing for my Husband and William, as well.  I don’t think I’ll stay retired forever; one day I’ll do something.  But at least for the next three-to-four years I want to be available to him.

KS:  How old is William?

SA:  William is nine now.  He’s in the third grade.

KS:  Will you tell me who your loved one was on Flight 93?

SA:  Umhm, Yes.  My loved one was Cee Cee Ross-Lyles.  She was one of the crew members, Flight Attendant.

KS:  Will you tell me more about Cee Cee?

SA:  Umhm.  Where to start?  Um, I mean, I, I can only say she was just a jewel, you know, hard to explain, just a, even from a baby, you could see that she was really special.  And, you know, I know every, everybody is special on the earth, you know, and I don’t want to make her out to be beyond what she was.  But she was really a special kid, from the very beginning.   Um, honestly, you know, being so young when I had her, my dream for her was to have, to be with two parents.  So, I made a decision to have her adopted.  Well, it was a blessing that my sister and her husband wanted a daughter and my family talked it through and my sister, Carrie, and her husband, adopted Cee Cee and raised her, basically.  But being after I finished school, I was right here, and even in school, you know, I was here most weekends and everything.  And we just had a beautiful, close relationship.  I was there, you know, I was like a baby-sitter, you know.  And all the time she was just, you know, just a special, precious little thing.   Um, growing up, she just turned out to be really smart, um, I don’t know, I attribute that to me being in school.  Um, you know, when I was pregnant, and she turned out to be really a smart girl.  Um, let’s see, that’s, um, elementary school she wanted to be, seemed like she wanted to be a Model and an Actress, you know, and eventually school.  Still brilliant, I mean I don’t know exactly what she said her goal was, but that’s the thing she did.  She loved to act, and she loved to dress up.  My sister, Frances and I would shop for our nieces and buy all sorts of, all sorts of clothes and she loved to dress up and, and model.  Anyway, after that in high school, still smart, um, she, you know, let’s see, she was a Cheer Leader, she just liked, was out-going and, um, just loved to do a lot of stuff.  Very mature, even from early years, you know, loving, she was always from a little girl, you know, she was just like she was an adult, just loved life, loved to do things.  My husband and I would take, um, her and another niece, other nieces, and relatives, you know, to Disney World and different places after she grew up, you know.  Maybe eight, nine, ten, I’m not sure of the years.  I haven’t thought that through, but she just loved life and she just loved fun and loved doing things, loved people.  As she got older, um, she had a son, young, like I did.  And, we really tried to get her to go to school at that time, but she decided she didn’t want to do that, she went ahead and got married to, you know, she and the guy were married.

KS:  To his father?

SA:  Umhm.  And we just, just, things were OK, you know, but you know, life went on and as I said, she just became, just a, a very loving person that seemed to, um, tie our family in some way together with each other, our whole family.  It was really strange, you know, when you go back and think about it.

KS:  It’s such a large family!

SA:  Umhm.  Umhm.  And she was the type that, I don’t know why she just loved to get together so much.  She moved away a few times, so, she lived in Orlando one time.  And when my husband and I were down in Miami, she moved down there, but when we would come home, she just loved to, you know, throw things together, even in her twenties, you know.  But, let’s see what else I can say about her.  As I said, she just loved life and she loved people and she just loved doing things, going places.    And she would strike out on her own and go visit people, you know.  You know, different from some, well Frances and I did that, but she’d just go out on her own, alone or with Jerome and go visit like she, her brother was in the middle of the country somewhere, and she’d just go do that.  She loved to travel, just loved going and doing; just always happy, happy-go-lucky.  Besides loving life and people, she tried to do the right thing.  She loved the Lord.

KS:  Was she involved in Church life here in Ft. Pierce?

SA:  Umhm.  Now the first part, um, well after she, let me tell you about her adult life and Church.  Even when she was a Policeman, she’d come to Church in her uniform when she was working, or right after work at night she’d come to Church.  And, um, she, you know, we’d have revivals and different stuff, and she’d just come right out there in her uniform.  And she’d do things, support Christian activities.  She’d, you know, support the kids, talk to the kids in the neighborhood and at the Church, especially in the family.   She would come by and talk to, I guess these would be her cousins, younger cousins and, you know, encourage them to do the right thing, show them her car, her police car and her handcuffs and different stuff.  She’d do things like that at the Church, even at Restoration House.  She would even go there and encourage the ladies.  I mean, she had so much opportunity to do the wrong thing, I mean, in this little town.  But she just always seemed to stay, even though she had her own mind, and did what she wanted to do, it was always on the straight-and-narrow and up-and-up, it seemed.

KS:  Do you have any idea what influenced her to pursue a career in Law Enforcement?

SA:  You know, I really don’t, but she’s always been in that background,  you know.  I think she’s all about doing, um, whatever she could to do better and provide for herself and her son.  One thing that was at, you know, was in her heart was to raise her son.  Um, there’s a lot to that, but I won’t go into it, but she really wanted to take, she wanted to provide well for him, so, I don’t know, somehow, when she came to Miami, she took a job in Corrections.  And I don’t know if that just led her when she came back to pursue that type of career.  Jobs were probably available and she went to the College and took the course, whatever course training she had to do to become a Police Officer.

KS:  Did the family discourage her?  That’s dangerous work, I guess I put myself in your place.

SA:  Umhm.  I don’t, I don’t remember a lot of discouragement for that job as compared to that last one.  So, um, I know, you know, my family is like this.    You know, we love God and, you know, we just believe, me personally, I just believe that life works out, and you know, we always prayed for her, had her covered, um, as far as that was concerned, under the blood of Jesus, really.  And I don’t think we worried quite as much, you know, about that job as that last one.  So, I don’t know; I don’t think so; I don’t, I don’t remember a lot of discouragement on that one, because, um, you know, small town and, you know, we used to know most of the people in this town.  I mean, it’s grown and it’s very different now, but I don’t think I had as much concern about that one.

KS:  She began with the Ft. Pierce Police Department as a Patrol Officer?

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And then I read that she had advanced, um, to be a Detective?

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And I believe Carrie mentioned that, to me last evening, that she had taken a test, an exam, and had done very well, was successful at passing that for a promotion to become a Sergeant, although she didn’t stay that long to be promoted.

SA:  She was, um, good.  She was smart, she could take those tests and, you know, study a little bit, and just really do a great job.  And she just, um, her, I mean, she just really always wanted to do very well at anything she did, so she always just would ,would go and study and make sure, you know, she always wanted to be in that top group, you know.  She really wanted to be the best, (laughs) but, you know, she would take being in the top two or three.  Yeah.  And she did do that, but she left before she was promoted.

KS:  Did she fall in love, again?

SA:  That’s what happened, I think.  She fell in love and, and I don’t know why, yeah, she fell in love and eventually moved on with the person she fell in love with,  which was her husband, Lorne.

KS:  Shirley, I don’t know if you can think back, um, also to her relationship with Adamil Castrillo.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  I don’t know where they met or how that relationship developed, but eventually they married, also, I mean that would have been before Loren Lyles.

SA:  Umhm.  Bill and I, my husband, Bill,

KS:  Yes.

SA:   and I lived in, um, Homestead, Perrine, Miami area.

KS:  Umhm.

SA:  He had gone, accepted a job down there; career change, and, as of course my job was all over the State of Florida, so I just transferred down there.  And eventually Cee Cee and Jerome moved down there.  And, um, she met Adamil and they married and they ended up, I think, we returned to Ft. Pierce, but they stayed.  They should have left.  They lived through a hurricane, Andrew, one of the worst.

KS:  In Homestead?

SA:  Umhm.  But, um, soon after that, I think, they moved to Ft. Pierce.  Um, I’m trying to think of the years.

KS:  Take your time.

SA:  Anyway, after 1992, I think, which was the hurricane, they eventually moved to Ft. Pierce, and that’s when she took the job, sometime during there, when she became a Police Officer.  Umhm.

KS:  And they had a child together?

SA:  Let’s see, if he’s twelve, if he’s going to be twelve, that would have been 1995, around 1995.  Umhm.  Um, they came, I don’t know if, she came, maybe to Ft. Pierce.  And maybe he stayed awhile down there and they would be backwards and forwards and eventually, they were both here.  And, yeah, actually they got married twice.  Umhm, umhm.   Um, he came here, he wanted things to be good, and so he came here and they got married again.  They had Jevon, as a matter of fact she lived up in my front room for awhile, before, um, before they remarried.  Buy anyway, yeah, they had a beautiful son, Jevon, just had a great life, really, together, for awhile.

KS:  Maybe the next part of her life, um, in order to talk about her desire to become a Flight Attendant then, I guess Lorne Lyles needs to be in this story.  I understand he was a, um, a Dispatcher, when they met?

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  With the Police Department?

SA:  Or 911, I don’t know how that works out.   Yeah, he was a Dispatcher, and later became a Police Officer, I think.  I think she even recruited him, and, um, I don’t know all the story on that.

KS:  That’s all right.

SA:  But I know she recruited him and, um, somehow they got involved and, and established a relationship.  Umhm.

KS:  And then they ended up over in the Tampa or Ft. Myers area?

SA:  Umhm.  I think Lorne had maybe lived in Tampa before.  And he went back.  And then she went over with him to Tampa.  They lived in Tampa for, um, awhile, I’m not good on all the numbers and, um, you know, my family, again, you know, wanted her really to do the right thing, you know, being there with her children.   They eventually married, you know, and,

KS:  And Lorne had two sons by a previous marriage?

SA:  Umhm.  And Cee Cee and her two sons were there.  And now, this is my understanding of the Flight Attendant.  I think Lorne saw a job available.  I think he worked as a, he can tell you, but I think he was at the airport and saw a job available, I think, and I think just got Cee Cee interested in that.  And that’s how she applied for the job and really got involved with that.

KS:  Were you surprised that she would leave police work?

SA:  Well she wasn’t doing police work at that moment when she moved over there.  So,

KS:  That’s really what her career had been to that point?

SA:  Umhm.  No, I wasn’t surprised, um, she’s, you know, she’s just a real go-getter and young people, they try things, try different things.  And, um, I think that offered, probably a lot, to her after she looked into it and, she was so happy with the thought of it, so.

KS:  Had she flown a lot in her life up until that point?

SA:  Not to my knowledge, no.  She hadn’t flown a lot.  I just really, I mean she was very excited about it, she really was.  But I don’t know, um, where it all came from but she was really excited about it, she was really thrilled with it.

KS:  She had to take an exam to be accepted in the program, I believe, and training?

SA:  Umhm, training and exams and stuff, in Chicago, and just was really, oh, she, she was just like this now.  She worked so hard; she really, I don’t know, she seemed to thrive on that, you know, taking those tests and taking those courses.  But like I say, you know, being young, she was still young, you know.  She, she just really did well.  She did well with that, too.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B

KS:  Shirley, do you recall more about her first few months on the job as that United Airlines Flight Attendant?  What she shared with you about her experiences at this point?  Was she enjoying the work?

SA:   Partly, um, I just never seen a happier person, she really liked it.  She really enjoyed it very much.  Um, you know, we would talk to her about, um, you know, not being home with the kids and different stuff.

KS:  You were concerned about that?

SA:  Umhm.  But, um, she was so together.  She was really a together young lady, I mean, she had her mind and her wits about her whenever she was involved in something.  She might not do what you want her to do, or whatever she decided to do, she did a pretty good job at it.  And so, you know, she had everything planned out, you know.  I think they were on certain days, and  then off a few days.  So, it wasn’t like she was away from them all the time.  And, like I said, she was just thrilled with the whole job.  She, she loved it; she loved her little New Jersey Base.  She loved the people up there, and, um,

KS:  She had to share an apartment up there so she could arrive from the flight and get a good-night’s sleep and then depart?

SA:  Right.  Umhm, yeah.  And I guess they have a little, had a little group of people that shared this place and she liked doing that and she liked the idea of being able to, um, fly her family different places.

KS:  And did she do that?

SA:  Umhm.  Yes, she did.  She and her son, Jerome, went to visit I think her brother, Tony, in Tennessee.  They did little things.  And then her family, as a matter of fact, she would, you know, offer to meet you somewhere and, and go places.  Um, I never did, but, um, the last time I talked to her, I don’t know if I want to go there so soon.  Well before that, my, my husband and, and, I and, and William had gone over to the house in Tampa and visited them, and just had a really great time, you know.  Jerome was getting older; he was getting ready to think about getting a job, I think she was getting ready to think about having him go and apply for a job, his first little job and,

KS:  He was about sixteen?

SA:  Umhm, just about maybe fifteen or sixteen, closer to sixteen.  I’m trying to think of the timeframe, but I can’t.  Anyway, they were doing good; they were happy.  All was well.  She was very, I’m telling you, she liked that job, so, I mean, what can you say?  Um, um, I think destiny, I don’t know, but when I, I, it was just really kind of ironic, I don’t know.  I don’t know if that’s a good word, but the last time I talked to her, I just never heard so much craziness.  She was laughing and everybody in the vehicle, they had, they had flown the family had gone somewhere.

KS:  Lorne and the children?

SA:  All, I think, Jerome and Jevon and Lorne and Cee Cee had gone to meet his sons and bring them back home.  I think it was about time for school, or whatever.  And if you wanted to hear some craziness, they were just laughing and having so much fun, riding down the street.  I just couldn’t believe it.  I think they were in Ohio or somewhere.  I can’t really recall, but wherever they were, they were just having a ball.  And I, I just know she loved the opportunity that that gave them, to, you know,

KS:  Travel?

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And be together?

SA:  Umhm.  So, it wasn’t like she was away from them a lot, it was just that, you know, parents are, you know, I don’t know, something else could have happened, you just never know.  But we really didn’t, didn’t like it, the new job, that much.

KS:  (Didn’t hear all of the question)

SA:  Umhm.  You know, she was, she was the type of person, she’s just going to be happy.  She was going to be happy, anyway, you know.  Wherever she found herself, most of the time, it was basically good.  I mean, that’s the type of disposition, you know, person she was, and then, things that didn’t work out, kind of moved on from them, you know.

KS:  She was a reserve Flight Attendant, because she was so new with United.  Um, most of the flights are big, and that’s why she ???? and being new, she really wasn’t able to bid the trips, probably, as much as she would have liked.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And do you know when she got this trip that required her to fly out of Newark on September 11th to San Francisco?

SA:  When she got the trip?

KS:  Yeah, when she was assigned or called to take that trip?

SA:  No, I’m not sure, but that was, she’s done that one before, I mean,

KS:  She’s been Newark to San Francisco before?

SA:  Umhm, I think so, that was not something new.  As a matter of fact, she was, um, she had gone out there in that area one time before and visited my Husband’s brother, my Brother-in-law, in Los Angeles.  They went to pick her up and, you know, she was, you know, they took her out and, you know, she had a good time and she had gone there before.  I have a picture of her out there, so, that was one thing that probably wasn’t good, that she couldn’t be at a base closer.

KS:  Umhm, closer to her home.  She had to fly to Newark to go to work.

SA:  Right!  Umhm.  But yeah, that wasn’t the only time, I don’t know how that was assigned, but that’s just one of the places she went, I don’t know.

KS:  This last opportunity you had to talk with her, do you remember when that was, Shirley?

SA:   Umhm, I’ll never forget it.  Um, that probably was September, um, it was Jerome’s birthday, September 8th.  And, um,

KS:  ???

SA:  Umhm.  And she was, you know, we just picked up the phone and we would just call each other all the time, so she just picked up the phone, she was riding down the street, and called and we were talking.  Actually, no, it must have been Sunday, because I think I was headed to Jacksonville to a conference for my job.  It must have been the ninth.

KS:  Umhm.

SA:  Anyway, I was headed to a conference in Jacksonville; she called me on the phone.  She loved talking on the phone.  That’s why I was confused, I wasn’t a computer person, not computer savvy, so, we talked on the phone a lot.

KS:  And she called you?

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  What did you talk about?

SA:   We just, um, as I said, we talked about Jerome’s birthday.  They were just having so much fun.  They had just, must have just gotten together and they were proceeding to go and celebrate and they were just so excited and laughing in the car.  We just talked, um, general conversation.  “Hello, how are you?  I’m in the car with the lady, other ladies, heading to Jacksonville.”  So, it was probably a brief, five-minute, um, general conversation.  But, I’ll never forget, like I said, the excitement and the fun that they were having.

KS:  How did your day begin on September 11th?

SA:  That was a strange and odd occurrence.  I was in Jacksonville at a conference, training conference, and, um, a nice hotel, Embassy Suites, they had breakfast for you in the morning, a breakfast buffet.  And our training was right there in the hotel.  And I had gone with other co-workers.  And we were going to meet for breakfast.  But I got up and called and said “I’m not going to come; I’ll be down later.”  And I stayed in my bed and read my bible and prayed.  And I got up late and I went downstairs to grab a quick bite before I went to that class.  And I was sitting there eating breakfast, watching TV, um, watching CNN, sat right there and saw a plane go into a building.  Um, ate my breakfast, scuffling, trying to get in there to that class, they started talking about it, it was an American Airlines plane.  Um, you know, trying to scuffle and get that breakfast down and get into that training.  Stayed there and, I think I saw a second one go, and then I had to go into my training.  And, got into the training, got involved, and my phone rang, you know, and I thought, you know, “Oh, I’m going to get killed.”  So I take it out and pressed the button to turn it off, and, um, after a few minutes, one of the training guys came in to say, um, “Something is going wrong; something is wrong, and I’m not sure what it is, but something is on TV about planes crashing.”  And, um,

KS:  He said this to just you, or the whole group?

SA:  No, to the, to the leaders of the, the trainers that were training us.  They said, “There’s a problem,” and they suggested that we take a break just to see what was happening, because something was wrong, so, no, he never said anything to me.  He didn’t know me, personally, so.  Um, so they said “OK, we’ll go take a break.”  And, um we took a break and I went, we went upstairs to one of my co-workers that I was traveling with, to her hotel room and I turned my phone back on.  And I think I called Frances, or Frances called me and she said, “Sis, um, something is going on.  There’s a big problem and they’re thinking Cee Cee may be involved.”  And um, um, so, um they called, um, we called around a couple of times, I mean I think she talked to Lorne and Carrie and then she would, you know, call me and conveyed to me,

KS:  You had the television on, and you were seeing the coverage while you were doing, you were making and taking calls from your family?

SA:  Yeah, but they never really knew anything about Flight 93.  It wasn’t clear what was going on.

KS:  The media coverage wasn’t?

SA:  Nobody was clear.  Nobody was really clear on Flight 93.  I’ll say maybe this is nine-something, nine-thirty.  There was a plane missing, which was Flight 93, and they were pretty sure Cee Cee was on the plane, but see, nothing had happened, yet.  So, as we found out that, um, that Cee Cee was really on the plane, you know, my co-workers knew her, also.  They, um, went down and told the people and they realized that it was, you know, realized what was really happening.  And then they, I guess, called, I guess some people in Tallahassee and decided that they better just cancel this out and send everybody home.  And, so, I went in, my co-workers and I went in, threw our stuff together, and, and just got back in the car.  My Husband called, everybody called to see if they should come get me, but they just canceled everything, it’s just too close to home, too much.  And I said, “No, don’t come get me.”  And, um, we got in the car and just came back to Ft. Pierce and, you know, as we traveled, we listened to the radio, and my family was calling, you know, backwards and forwards and, you know, we thought we had hope for so long there, because,

KS:  She wasn’t on the plane, or she survived?

SA:  No, that they would survive.  Because, you know, it didn’t crash until after ten, so, I guess we thought we had hope.  And then we were still hoping against hope even after that.  But anyway, they finally called me and told me that it had crashed, and we just came home and, you know, we just tried to, you know, we just held ourselves together, the three girls were just, you know, the most beautiful people, Yvette, whom I love and Shawna, they’re, they’re just both great people.  And we just tried to make it home, together, and we did.  And they brought me here and my family was waiting and we were trying to decide what we should do, because we knew we had the boys over there, and they had moved to Ft. Myers.  So we knew we had the boys over there in Ft. Myers, you know, so, um,

KS:  Did you talk to Lorne?

SA:  Umhm, And, um, I’m trying to think when I talked to him.  I don’t know, but what happened is, I came home, my Husband met me here.  Um, we, um, I don’t think I had to pack, but I packed them, him and William, for overnight.  And, um, we all, I think, I don’t know if Adamil and Carrie might have driven over and the rest of us got our things together.

KS:  You went to Ft. Myers?

SA:  Umhm.  Umhm.  We all went over there, you know, for support for Lorne and the boys.  Ended up and we got over there and there were just, you know, his family is pretty big, too, relatives and friends.  And, um, my family that was here, a lot of us went over there.  And, um, they had not been there that long.  If, if , um but these people over there, they were the greatest people.  I don’t know if anybody has said that, but they took care of all these people, all these strangers that had come into their city.  And, um, there were, I just will never forget that, how they, you know, provided hotel rooms and food, everything.

KS:  Were these like family and friends or co-workers, police department, or did you have a sense of who was providing for you?

SA:  The Police Department and, I, I really don’t know, those people, that city, um, somebody pulled together and I, I never really, um, I might, I don’t remember a lot of things, but whoever it was, they really just stepped right in and made sure.  I mean it was a big group of people; wasn’t a small group.  But they were really, really, kind, loving people over there.  They were the first, I think they did the first Memorial.

KS.  Right.

SA:  Umhm.  Also, they did really nice things over there.

KS:  Did Lorne tell you about the telephone calls?

SA:  Umhm.  Yes, um, a couple of things.  Um, he was asleep on the first one.  So there was a voice mail.  And he gave me the tape of it.  And then the second one he did get, you know, he just didn’t think it was real, at first.  But when, you know, Cee Cee, you know, told him, you know, this is real, this is true, you know, and told him what she really needed him to do.  I mean call the FBI and United Airlines.  Um, that’s what he did.  Um, I, I believe that, OK, so he talked to her again, and he said he was there until the very end, until the plane probably crashed.  Um, and I could never get a sense from anybody, cause this is what troubled me.  I think I’m maybe finally free from it, but this is what troubled me.  I just was always so concerned, it just bothered me, you know, as to whether she had a really rough time, you know, if she was afraid, if she, I just, you know, I just didn’t know what she went through.  Um, that had to be hard.  I know she was very strong.  She’s just really a tough girl, a tough woman.  Her life, you know, probably wasn’t the easiest life, but I was just so scared that, I just didn’t want her to be there, afraid and, you know, I just was hoping and praying that she was strong enough to just pray then ask God to help her, you know.  It bothered me, I just always wondered, you know.  I didn’t want her to be suffering and, not suffering after the crash, I know they didn’t, but just those few minutes, I’m sorry (emotional), I don’t talk about that much, but that bothered me so long, you know, just made me a nervous wreck for the longest time, wondering what she was going through.

KS:   ??????

SA:  Umhm.  And I don’t know, Lorne might have some sense of it, but, um I never got a good understanding.  But, finally, (crying) I’m kind of, you know, I just can’t go on wondering about that.  I finally, you know, I just believe that, um, you know, whatever it was, it wasn’t a long, a long time.  And I did get some, um, I don’t know why people say or think that, um, she was, um, I don’t know where it came from, but I really felt good when I saw the first little documentary or something about it, when they portrayed Cee Cee as having been praying with the missionary couple.  I don’t, you know, we’ll never really know what happened, but I did get, I felt good about that, I don’t know why it was portrayed like that, but, that was like agonizing, you know, but there’s nothing you can do, anyway.

Another thing was, um, Jerome, poor Jerome, being in school and that’s playing out before his eyes.

KS:  Did he have any idea of the flight number, destination, you know, where she was flying to that day?  I mean did he have that information?

SA:  I’m not sure, all I know is he asked if he could go call his Mom.

KS:  While he was at school yet?

SA:  Umhm.  I think.  They let him go call and he didn’t get her and he was in class and he saw Lorne appear.  And, you know, it had to be just devastating.  Lorne appeared; he, he knew, you know.  Two hard things that, phew, difficult, never, it can never be erased, I guess.  But, like I say, God is so good, and you know, that comes and goes.  I’m good now.

KS:  Umhm.  So your family really gathered together around Lorne and the boys?

SA:  Umhm, and his family, as well.  I can’t remember how long we were there, um, maybe a day or so and then we had to, we all shifted back to Ft. Pierce, basically everybody came back to Ft. Pierce to, um, I don’t know what.  My Husband and I and my son, um, came to Pennsylvania, I don’t know how long after that was.

KS:  How did you get to Pennsylvania?  I know United Airlines made arrangements to travel for family members.

SA:  ?

KS:  United Airlines flew you to Pennsylvania?

SA:  Not on a United Airlines plane, but they, some other airline, I don’t remember it being a United Airlines plane, but,

KS:  Umhm.

SA:  I’m not sure, but they flew us up there.

KS:  And were you at Seven Springs?

SA:  Yes.

KS:  Who else from the family was able to go to Shanksville?   Do you recall?

SA:  Um, I’m really thinking it was just Bill, myself and William.

KS:  Lorne didn’t go?

SA:  No.  This was a very difficult time.  Um, but my Husband and I had decided, I don’t know if we decided then, but whatever they did, that we would make sure that we, you know, that Cee Cee was always represented.  So, you know, and understood, you know, I understand what was going on with everybody, the pain, and some people were just not getting on any airplanes, period.  Um, I think he just started flying this year, so, um, we just decided whatever they did, we would try to go, if it was any way possible, we would try to make ourselves available.  So, we wanted somebody to be there.

KS:  I’m sure it was difficult to get on a plane at that point.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  Do you recall the first time that you went to the overlook at the Crash Site?

SA:  Umhm.  Um, I don’t know, um, I probably was in the state of shock the whole, it’s lasted a long time.  But, anyway, when we went, um, I think they had just put the road in there and we were so far away, to me.  That was far away, there, looking out there.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B

START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A

SA:  OK, the distance from the Crash Site and where they allowed us to be was not close enough for me, but, um, boy it was another strange day being there.  Um, I didn’t understand until a little bit later talking to, um, the group, I don’t know if it was, um, the Coroner’s Office, and the entire, so many people there that talked to us and took blood, um,

KS:  For DNA?

SA:  Umhm, and different things.  But I, I didn’t really understand, you know, even from just looking at the Crash Site, you know, that, you know, the impact and everything.  And a lot of things I didn’t understand until just recently.  But it was, um, really, I was glad that we went.  I had a sense of, you know, being close to where it happened, or seeing as much as I could see and knowing, but, um, I think, um, to me, grieving when there’s no real body is not as bad, and I think, um, September 11th was so huge beyond me and, um, it was just such a shocking, big event, that it just didn’t allow you to really, um, to me, to really grieve and for what I’ve seen, like when my Mother passed, you know, it was just a totally different thing.  My Mother was ill and she passed away, and I believe she’s in heaven, Glory to God, you know.  But this thing was just so huge, um, you know, that I don’t even really know a lot that happened around that time, I’m serious.   I don’t even know; I was there for most everything, but, um, I do remember, um, you know, that there were all these people.  We were on these busses and there were all these, oh it was just really scary, these busses trying to park and then all these people and then all these nice people from Pennsylvania, so sweet and kind and loving and even if I did want to grieve, or really be in pain, I had a four-year-old child with me.  And, um, not quite four and he’s “Mommy” you know, this that and the other, you know.

KS:  Not understanding.

SA:  Not really understanding, and then, um, we didn’t know.  But anyway, it was a good thing that we took him, you know.  A lot of people said it was a blessing to have him there with his, you know, um, you know, he was talkative and stuff.  Anyway, they um, the people were so nice.  They took him away for a little while so that my Husband and I could just really have a few moments to ourselves and, um, but, like I said, it was just a lot more than I’ve ever experienced.  So, I’m thinking, and I thought up until last year, that was a big shock, a big, big shock.  And, um, you know, there’s, I can’t, I can’t even explain it.  Even, we had a Service here in Ft. Pierce, like maybe almost two weeks later, or I’m not sure exactly.  And it was just overwhelming.  The whole thing big and overwhelming, and if there is not a body, you can put a casket up there and say “OK, we’re having a Service for this person,” but if you never see anything, it’s just a little bit different, you know.  Um, you hurt, there’s pain.  I, I don’t know.  I told Jerome, I said, “We’re, let’s, we’re not going to cry, let’s don’t cry.”  I, I, think I, I did too much, um, supporting; I supported everybody, I think.  (emotional)

I tried to be strong and supportive for everybody, and I was in shock.  I was in shock, and I think that’s why.  If I ever really talk about, it’s not good.  Anyway,

KS:  You’re busy taking care of everybody else.

SA:  Making sure, doing things.  And then we had the Service here, and I didn’t know.  We have a Church.  We have about two hundred, we have about two hundred in our Church, on a normal Sunday.    It probably would hold three hundred.  And we’re planning the Service and this guy said, “Oh no, you can’t do it there.  That’s too small.”

KS:  Who said that?

SA:  A Funeral Director.  It’s too small.  “We have a facility owned by another Church that holds a lot, thousands of people.”  And he suggested that, and it turns out he was right and there’s the media and, you know, just was all too big, you know, just all too much.

KS:  I did do an interview with a United Airlines Flight Attendant Supervisor who was responsible for Cee Cee, for her continued training and evaluation, named Kathleen Collis.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And she described coming here with her Husband and attending the Service for Cee Cee.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  She described it as “Beautiful; a beautiful tribute” to me.

SA:  Well, it was.  I think it was beautiful, I think it was nice, you know.  Um, I don’t know, um,

KS:  But you helped to plan that?

SA:  Umhm.  My sisters and Lorne and he thought, you know, he had a couple of things he wanted to happen, and then he said, you know, “You all do and take care of it.”

KS:  United Airlines Flight Attendants also had a Service up in the Newark Base.  Did you attend that?

SA:  No, I wasn’t able to go.   But they showed up here; there were so many of them.  It was just a, um, they had a section, um corded off for them.

KS:  United Airlines?

SA:  Umhm.  And there was a whole big group of them.  It was just really, really, really, everybody supported, you know, or showed up.

KS:  Sounds like you would have preferred something a lot more private?

SA:  No.

KS:  No?

SA:  Not at all.  She, um, deserved just what – it was very, very nice, it was just really nice.  But I’m just saying not just the service, the whole thing, you know.  It was like, I think, like I was in a different world.  You know what I’m saying?  That’s why I say, I must have been in shock.  Because I took care of everything, I’m serious, I did things, unbelievably, and I just, I don’t know.  I’m not saying that it should have been smaller.  Just saying that me, personally, and this house, and some others probably just never took the time to, I don’t know, um, and maybe we didn’t scream because we decided that, um, she’s with God, you know, you know.  She was a person that loved the Lord and, and we believed that she went to Him.  And, you know, when it happened, here I am with nobody, you know, two friends, but, you know, it was just, um I don’t know how to explain, just, and then when I get here, I got to jump in motion, immediately.  Um, but, it all worked out good.  It all worked out good.  Everything surrounding it, to me, because I just really believe I want to be on record as saying that I believe God is in control of everything, and, um, you know, you can’t change, and I just believe that His, His Mercy and Grace, by His Mercy and Grace, you know, she’s with Him.  That was destined to happen that way, you know.  She didn’t just get that job nine months ago, um, that was how it was supposed to happen.  I just accept that.

KS:  Will you tell me about her sons since that day?

SA:  Umhm, umhm.  Jerome is her older son.  Um, gosh, um, so much.

KS:  Did Jerome stay with Lorne or,

SA:  No.  Lorne said, um, that Cee Cee said that if anything ever to her, she wanted the boys to go with Adamil.  So, they went to live with Adamil.

KS:  Both of them did?

SA:  Umhm.  Um, it was a struggle for Jerome, you know, being older, and I’m telling you, it had to be a crushing blow, you know, to him.  And at sixteen-years-old, you know.  If he was four to ten, you know, maybe he could have really bounced up real good, but anyway, being sixteen, I think it pierced his heart.  That was his friend, besides his Mother, that was his friend.  A lot of times, it would be Cee Cee and Jerome.  I don’t know if anybody told you, they used to dress in the, she used to dress him in the same color she used to wear, you know, when it was just the two of them?  And even, I guess, when it was a group, sometimes, but when it was the two of them, you’d see them coming, they’d have on black and white, both of them.  And she was, she’d keep him so clean and immaculate, all the time and people would threaten to just put dirt on him, you know.  They were just really close, really close, and I think it just had a devastating effect on him.  Um, and being sixteen, he lived with Adamil and, Oh Boy, we were, um, they let him come back to Ft. Pierce to the same school he was attending before he left, which was a really good school, a magnet school.  And oh gosh, I’m panicking when it’s time for him to graduate, because we have this ??? test here in Florida, a comprehensive achievement test they take and you have to pass it to graduate.  And I’m calling around, but I do find out he’s already passed it, he’s already taken it somewhere and passed it, and this was all good.  But, he was a pretty smart kid, smart kid, real good with computers and technology, um, but, um, he, being sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, then you think, well, “I can kind of handle this.”  So he wanted to handle life.  Um, and, um, so he wanted to be on his own instead of being directed and that’s where he is now, and, um, he has a job now.  And he’s working.  And he’s over in Tampa.  Lorne kind of has the watchful eye out there, I guess, to make sure he just stays in line, I guess.  But, um, we wanted him to go to school.  He would enroll in this or that and wouldn’t stay.  And that’s how Cee Cee did at first.  But later on, she realized, and see, this kid is, Jerome is very smart, so, he, you know, should pull it together and realize he need his butt in school.  And we even had, um, Sandy Dahl, “Tell  Jerome to call me, I, he should be my first scholarship,” you know.  But we couldn’t just make him, you know, stay in school.  But, um, Lorne tells me he is working now and Frances and I are going over there, um, very soon to put our hands on him, (both laugh) and just make sure that all is well.  Um, Jevon was a baby, so, I think, being a baby, um, was easier for him to just, you know, knowing his heart is broken, but much easier for him to bounce back and being with his dad, um, and can’t go anywhere else.  I don’t know, nowhere else.

KS:  A seven-year-old usually can’t pack it up and go.

SA:  Yes, he can’t just go, so, so he has direction and everything and he’s doing very well; just a smart kid, a loving kid, my heart breaks for him.  My heart breaks for them, you know.  And there’s nothing you can do, so, it just breaks for them.  But Jevon is, is well, is well.  Jerome is well.  But deep down inside, my heart just breaks for them.  They, um, we took Jevon to New York this summer.  And, I don’t know, September 11th, they tell me, they did a news article with him down here.  We were up there.  And somebody asked him something, some question about since his Mom’s been gone and he said, “Well, I went to New York this summer and had the best trip of my life,” or something.  He’s just so sweet, straight “A” student, respectful, getting good guidance, good training, Church.  Um, he loves the Lord.

KS:  He’s a big-brother now.

SA:  Umhm, loves the Lord, has two sisters.  One of them named after Frances, Amelia, the oldest one was named after Frances; her middle name is Amelia.  Um, you know, they’re doing well.  They’re going to be fine.  Um, they’re going to be fine, you know, one thing about, you know, having the Lord in your life, getting some kind of training, I mean, you got something to hold on to.

KS:  Shirley, do you know what personal effects of Cee Cee’s were recovered at the site?

SA:  (Emotional)  Very little.  I understand, maybe her driver’s license, maybe, I don’t know, maybe parts of, minimal body tissue, finger or something, I’m not sure; very minimal.   That’s my understanding, I think.  But I think her driver’s license, maybe wallet, maybe something else.  Lorne can give you better details about that, but just minimal stuff.  But I know some things were found.

KS:  Where are her remains buried?

SA:  Um, Hillcrest Memorial Gardens; very nice.

KS:  Here in Ft. Pierce area?

SA:  Yes, and I can take you there if you want to go, but, um, yeah, um, I think Lorne has two sites up there; one for him and one for her, yeah, um, which could change, as time goes on, but, um, not too far from here, a very nice place.  And, um, Ft. Pierce, we don’t have major malls here, so a lot of times we go to Vero Beach, and that’s, Hillcrest Memorial Gardens is between Ft. Pierce and Vero Beach.  So we often pass there, say “Hey girlfriend!” sometimes ride through.  Um, you know, that’s something I don’t do a lot with anybody, but I do with her, her memory.  Cause I know she’s not there.

KS:  I know after we finish the interview, we’ll go to the park.  Tell me the name of the park here in Ft. Pierce where the sculpture of Cee Cee has been placed.

SA:  Actually, it’s the Ft. Pierce Community Center.

KS:  OK.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And, will you tell me about the sculpture?

SA:  Umhm.  Um, this guy, Chris Riccardo, an artist, offered to do that for Lorne.  Um,

KS:  Where’s he from?

SA:  He lives in West Palm Beach, a very nice wife, Melony.  Nice people, and he asked for a picture of Cee Cee.  And he wanted to do that sculpture for us, and Lorne gave him a picture and, um, and, um, he eventually got it done and they dedicated it down, on the ocean down there.

KS:  And she’s in her Flight Attendant uniform?

SA:  Yes, M’am, in her Flight Attendant uniform, um, with her hands on her hips.   Um, they dedicated it, I guess, a couple of years after September 11th, maybe two or three.  I can’t tell you exactly.  And, on her birthday, and Lorne saw that all the way through, worked with the guy.  Um, and, um, the very next January, we had a lot of storms and things after starting in 2004.  And that next January, it reportedly blew over, the wind blew it over.  And the police department went down there and checked it.   And I think the City sent it back to Chris.  And the City had it redone and re-poured and bronzed.  I guess that’s part of it; makes it heavier and then they, um, did some tie-downs into the ground, so, it was,

KS:  More secure?

SA:  Umhm, secured it so it wouldn’t move and it’s supposed to be able to withstand hurricane winds now, so, and they re-dedicated it this year, Fourth of July, and we, Lorne had sent me a copy of the picture before they finalized it for the crew memorial in Shanksville.  And I had sent that to the Parks Department here in Ft. Pierce.  And, because the statue, the face of the statue, is not close, was not close enough for me, I asked that they put a picture of her down there.

KS:  Along with the sculpture?

SA:  Umhm, so, um, they did this July Fourth of this year.  Mayor Benton re-dedicated it for us, and it was very nice.

KS:  I look forward to going down to see it today.

SA:  The only other thing I want to see there is maybe a little podium, another little podium or something with a vase, so we can put red roses in there whenever we get ready.  She loved red roses, and I think that will kind of make it complete.  But it’s very nice, a very nice memory.  Um, and I don’t know if someone mentioned to you that in Ft. Myers, they dedicated a bench in the Memorial Gardens or there, to Cee Cee.  And we all went over, not all, but a lot of us went over for that dedication.  Has her name on it, and one other girl that was from Florida, Ft. Myers area, that had died in New York, one of the World Trade Center buildings, umhm.  Her name is on there, as well.

KS:  I also read there’s a scholarship fund.

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  In Cee Cee’s name?  Can you tell me more about that?

SA:  Um, yes, my sisters and I, um, started a scholarship fund.  We just put some money, each one of us, there are five of us.  We took some money of our own, just to keep her memory going.  We decided to do a scholarship at her old high school where she was a cheer leader and everything, Westwood High School in Ft. Pierce.  And, um, this year we gave the first scholarship to one of the Westwood High School students.  And next year we plan to do more.  One of the Guidance Counselors who knew Cee Cee very well goes to our Church, Miss Andrea Dampier, suggested, “Well do less money and more scholarships,” and then offer it, you know, City-wide.  So that’s what we’re thinking about doing.

KS:  What is the criteria to be awarded the scholarship?

SA:  The only criteria is, well, criteria(s) are that they either attend Indian River Community College, which is local and my Alma Mater, Florida A&M University.  No, um, even grade-point average, I think we did want a grade-point average and I don’t have it.

KS:  That’s all right.

SA:  But, but it didn’t have to be a real high grade-point average.  They just had to be accepted in school, to want to attend college, you know.  We didn’t want to give it to people with 4.0’s and we, we, didn’t make the GPA high because, those people have scholarships, you know, we wanted to help somebody in need, and that, you know, might go to school locally.  You know, most of the smart kids,

KS:  Did Cee Cee attend Indian River?

SA:  Yes, she did.  She took classes there and, of course, that’s where she did the police training and classes, and further classes.  She did a lot of other classes there.

KS:  That’s wonderful!

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  I know you come back to Shanksville a number of times now.  Is there anything that you would like to say about, um, the community, the experience that you’ve had when you returned?

SA:  Umhm.  I, I just, I shouldn’t be surprised or amazed, but I just never seen, you know everybody seems like they’re, Shanksville, everybody seems like they’re concerned about you; like they love you; like they care.  They are so compassionate, you know, really, really sweet people.  Even from the first day with the Red Cross.  I don’t know where they were from, if they were all from Shanksville, but I mean, whatever concern you had, I mean, they were there.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A

START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B

SA:  From the very beginning in 2001 when we went there, I just believe everybody that was there, all the family members, would say a big thank-you and “God Bless You” to everybody in Shanksville.  And even in Somerset County, people just were so beautiful and still are, you know.  I, when I go there, I always meet someone new and different and everybody is so nice and, you know, so concerned and loving and compassionate.  They’re saying, you know, you know, nice things to us and we should really be saying it to them.  They’re just so sweet.  Um, um, no matter how many times we go, um, and we plan to go forever, um, even in bigger groups.  One of my sisters went for the first time this year and she said, you know, and I know how much it touched her before, she said it means so much more when you are actually there.  And, um, I just want to express that the volunteers at the temporary memorial, all, they do an awesome job, I mean, just really great people.  And Shanksville is just, um, it was destiny, I’m telling you, for it to happen there.  It just wouldn’t have been the same anywhere else, the people are beautiful, and, my husband said, “Let’s buy a, a home up there, a little place.”  And I say, “No” (laughs).  But I’ll always come.

KS:  Shirley, did you attend, um, any of the meetings that were held?  I know the Coroner, Wallace Miller, held a family meeting in February of 2002 and then there was also a meeting in the Spring, I think April, where the families were permitted to listen to the cockpit voice recorder.  Were you able to attend either of those?

SA:  Um, I met with Wallace Miller at some point in time, was in a meeting where he explained a lot of things at one point in time.  And I definitely went to, um, hear the cockpit voice recording.  I’m trying to say the name of the place and I can’t bring it up.

KS:  Princeton?  New Jersey?

SA:  Princeton, umhm, I went to Princeton to hear that.

KS:  And did you listen to the recording, did you view the words, the transcript, did you do both?

SA:  Yes I did.

KS:  Both?

SA:  Umhm.

KS:  And what were your thoughts?

SA:  Um, just makes it, just like any time you get really involved in it and talk about it and know what actually happened, it just, um, kind of takes you back to September 11, 2001.  I don’t think I learned very much about who did what, um, that I recall at this time.  A lot of people thought they learned things, but I, I didn’t.

KS:  OK.

KS:  And now, would you like to take the phone?  (phone ringing)

SA:   I just need to see.

KS:  Sure.

SA:  I think my husband and Carrie and I decided that, what we knew all along, that Cee Cee was not the one that had been, the Flight Attendant that had been killed before the crash.

KS:  At the beginning of the take-over?

SA:  Right.  Umhm.  So we, but we were pretty sure anyway.

KS:  Based on what?

SA:  Well we pretty much knew, because she was on the phone with Lorne, um, almost to the very end, and had made those phone calls.  So, but somehow, we, it kind of, something about it cleared it up in our minds that it wasn’t Cee Cee.  And then after we thought it all through, knowing the timing,

KS:  The Time Line?

SA:  Umhm.  But people were saying different things about who it was, and at one time, someone said it was Cee Cee.  But, after listening, and knowing about the phone calls and everything, it couldn’t have been.  But I don’t think, like I said, it just, um, I don’t think all those things really helped so much, but I’d do it again, everything I’ve done, you know.  I want to know as much as I can and, like I said, I’d do it all again.

KS:  Are you involved with the families of Flight 93?

SA:  To a certain extent.  Um, I’m, I’m a part of the email that Carol sends out on a regular basis.  Um, I’ve gotten to know some pretty closely.  Um, they’re all very nice people.  Um, I, if I ever have opportunity like they had one meeting in Washington, DC, I was there.  I mean, it’s kind of far away from me and a person that was working.  It was kind of hard to do; everything is done, basically up North or in California.  But I try to stay in touch, I try to stay involved, you know.  I keep up with, you know, pretty much what’s happening.  I’m not on any committees at this point, but I have said I will make myself available now that I’m retired.

KS:   I’m sure they would welcome your involvement.

SA:  Well the ones that I know are very nice people, I mean.  Everybody’s just so sweet, I mean, we’re just like, really, family, you know.  When we get together, um, it’s really, um, I mean everybody’s concerned about everybody, I mean, when they have deaths or anything, I mean, it’s just, especially Mr. Bodley, I mean those things just really break your heart, I mean, cause you know them.  You’ve talked with them, even if it’s just for a few minutes, you know.  It’s just, most of those people, at least the, I don’t know, the closest family members are those that have been on the scene, you know, I mean, you feel like a part of their family, you know.

KS:  I was wondering what your thoughts are about what we know to be the actions of the passengers and crew members, the telephone calls that were placed by the individuals on Flight 93, your thoughts about all of that?

SA:  Well, I started out saying I didn’t want to make Cee Cee out to be something that she wasn’t, but I can tell you, she was a very brave girl.  She was a very tough lady.  Um, and, um, I think those people were people that wanted to go home to their families and just would have chosen that over anything that might happen with them being called heroes.  And, but, destiny once again!  I think they took very heroic actions, and I think they almost, I think they got close to making it.  I really do; I really believe that.  I believe they tried, you know.  I think those people on that plane bonded together and said “We’re going to do something.”  I mean, they voted, I just think it was pretty heroic actions, you know, just because they wanted to go home.  They didn’t want to crash, you know, they just wanted to go home.  And not really hurt anybody else.  They knew that was one of the goals of the terrorists.  And I just, um,

KS:  They knew planes were being used as weapons.

SA:  Umhm.  Umhm.  And, um, I’m just engulfed with pride over what they did. And, I’m telling, Miss Cee Cee, that she’s a fighter, she’s a fighter, yeah, I’m, I was concerned, you know, you know, that in the end she didn’t lose it.  But I’m sure she would do whatever she needed to do, as well as, you know, in times like that, I mean, everybody can find what they need.  But, like I said, um, if it was meant to be, they would have made it.  And, yes, um, forty heroes.

KS:  How would you like Cee Cee remembered?

SA:  Like I said from the beginning, she loved life.  She loved living.  She loved people.   She loved God.  She loved her family, she just loved, she was just a person that had compassion and concern and she shared her life and her love with the world.  Nobody was, um, could be excluded that she came in contact with, through her job, her family, wherever, school.  Um, Cee Cee was a private person in a lot of ways.  Um, everybody didn’t know her.  You can’t ask anybody, um, even friends, you know.  She was private in a lot of ways.  But she was just an absolutely great person that had a very loving heart; sharing, giving.  She was a happy lady.  As we all do have things that we go through, she did.  But, um, she just was a happy, loving lady; smart, pretty, just a great person.

KS:  I know that you’re aware of the efforts to create a National Memorial, and we would like to know your thoughts about that, Shirley.

SA:  Um, I think we should.  Um, I agree.  I have no, no problem.  Um, no questions, I just agree that it should be done.  National Memorial, yeah, a memorial yes, and it should be National, because I think had they not did what they did, the passengers and crew, we might have had just another, it just would have been worse, September 11th, just could have been much worse, you know, there are hearts that break at what did happen, it would have been much worse.  We, we wouldn’t have wanted to have seen what we thought was going to happen.

KS:  What do you think the legacy of Flight 93 might be?

SA:  This lady in my Church, she’s an older lady, Mother Presley, um, she always says, she’s like over the women in our Church, women’s department.  And she always says, “Working together brings great results!”  They might not have gotten to the end that they were trying to get, well they did keep the plane from going to Washington, DC.  I would like for it to have been saved all together, but “Working Together,” I’m going to say that.  “Working together brings great results!”

KS:  Is there anyone else that you feel we should contact to participate in the Oral History Project?  And you really can contact me at any time if there’s someone that you would like us to contact.

SA:  Not at this moment, not at this moment.  She has, um, cousins and different people that would love to say different things about her, but,

KS:  There was one individual mentioned from the Ft. Pierce Police Department.

SA:  Sandy?

KS:  I’m not, I don’t know the name, but I

SA:  A Detective?

KS:  I thought you might think about that, too.

SA:  Umhm.  She had one close lady friend that worked on, that was a detective.   I saw her a few months ago, and we just stood there.  We were at the same school, I guess, going out about our kids and she talked, we talked over thirty minutes, just standing outside; she was a nice lady.  I know her, if you ever come back this way, I would try to arrange that.

KS:  Just let me know if there’s anything else, too.

SA:  OK.

KS:  Is there anything else that you would like to add to your Oral History recording today?  Perhaps there’s something I haven’t asked about or it really hasn’t come up, anything that you would like to add?

SA:  Um, nothing except that, um, I think this is a good, great thing that the people on Flight 93 be remembered forever in history.  And I just appreciate you and Barbara and all the work and the National Park committee, I mean, all the work that’s being done.  Um, I think it’s important and I think it’s going to be a part of history.  And I think this information will just really serve to help and, um, I think it was mentioned earlier, I, I think it would be good that each person can have their little, whatever you do, to let the world know who they are, who they were, and, you know, um, their personal history.

KS:  Well this Oral History collection will certainly help to define forty passengers and crew members of Flight 93.  We’re very grateful that you chose to participate and to have your precious memories of Cee Cee and your experience recorded in your own words, Shirley, we’re very grateful.  Thank you.

SA:  You’re welcome.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE B

END OF INTERVIEW

FLIGHT 93 NATIONAL MEMORIAL

NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH:  Mary Will and Matthew Will

CONNECTION TO FLIGHT 93:

INTERVIEWER:  Kathie Shaffer

INTERVIEWER DATE:  August 28, 2006

LOCATION:  Mary Will’s home in Brothersvalley Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania

INTERVIEW LENGTH:  1 audio cassette

TRANSCRIBER:  Shirley Sowerbrower

START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A

This is an interview with Mary Will and Matthew Will who are mother and son.  Mary resides in Brothersvalley Township in Somerset County, Pennsylvania and Matt resides in Woodberry Township in Bedford County, Pennsylvania.  Mary’s husband and Matt’s father, James K. Will took off from an air strip on his family farm in his Cesna 150 and flew over the Flight 93 crash site within minutes after the crash on September 11th, 2001.  Today’s date is August 28, 2006 and we are at Mary Will’s home on Pike School Road in Brothersvalley Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania.  The interviewer is Kathie Shaffer representing the Oral History Project of the Flight 93 National Memorial.

KS:  Mary, will you tell me how old you are?

Mary:  Yes, I turned fifty-seven on August 22.

KS:  You just had a birthday.

MW:  I just had a birthday.

KS:  And Matt, how about you?

Matt: I’m thirty-six.

KS:  And where do you both live?

Mary:  I live in Berlin, Pennsylvania.

Matt:  I live in Roaring Spring, Pennsylvania.

KS:  And we’re here in your home today, Mary, and maybe you’ll tell me a little about the family, and about your husband Jim?

Mary:  Okay, well my husband and I got married in 1968 and um, we were married for thirty-five years and he passed away three years ago today. (pause) (whisper)  I’ll be okay.

KS:  Take your time.

Mary:  And we have three children and Matt, Matthew, Wendy, and Josh.  And we were very happy and Jim was a great man and he graduated from Penn State University in 1969 when our son, our oldest son was six months old.  And he was a dairy farmer, also a pilot.  He got his pilot’s license when he was sixteen.  And he was an aerial photographer and we had a wood business, which I still have.  So we tore down old barns and old buildings and recycled the wood.  So he was a very, very busy person.

KS:  What was his degree in, from Penn State?

Mary:  Agriculture Education and Science.

KS:  And can you tell me any more about his interest in flying?

Mary:  Well, um, he, like I said he got his pilot’s license when he was sixteen.  And he, the first time his friend took him up with, in the airplane, with his friend’s father he fell in love with flying.  And he thought how am I going to do this without my mother finding out (laughing) because she will not go along with this.  So he talked to his father.  And his father said, “Well, okay you have my permission but whatever you do don’t tell your mother and we’ll figure something out.”  So he started to take lessons and he got his license and he flew for, he got all of his, he got his instrument, and what?  His commercial-

Matt:  He held two certificates, an instrument rating and a commercial-

Mary:  Right.

Matt:  -rating.

Mary:  And he flew for a company that was Air Hearse, I think that was the name of it, Air Hearse.  And they picked up bodies from Viet Nam, in Dover, Delaware, and then he would fly them to wherever they were from.  So he did that.  And mostly he just did that for pleasure, you know, flew for pleasure.  And then he started this aerial photography business probably in 1980, I’d say.  And he was very successful and, you know, he really loved to do it.  He just loved to fly.  And I know when he was sick he said as long as he could be up there flying he never thought about being sick.  So he really loved to fly.

KS:  Matt, I wondered if you would like to talk about your dad and his interests?

Matt:  Well, as they say, like father, like son, from my earliest childhood memories I looked up to Dad as my hero, idol, what have you.  From my earliest childhood, I grew up basically over at the farm.  And of course he was a dairy farmer and so from the time I can remember it was, my life revolved around the farm.  And as well as his interest in flying, I obtained the same interest.  And from day one it was either operating equipment and tractors, or flying an airplane.   And by the time I was probably twelve, thirteen years old, I was flying, not by myself, but by myself.  I mean, he taught me how to fly and I pretty much followed his footsteps.  Soloed on my sixteenth birthday.  The year after that I got my private pilot’s license and, of course, achieved an instrument commercial rating.  And I flew commercial for a while.  So, I idolized him and everything I did, right up to him helping me purchase my own business that I own today, and all of my skills and achievements that I’ve obtained, I have to attribute to his knowledge, wealth or knowledge and wisdom and everything that he passed on  to me.  So, he was a special kind of a fellow: special man.

KS:  I’m sure you must have just so many special memories of times together here on the farm and then in flying.

Matt:  Yes, yes.  I could go on for hours telling stories, of course.

(laughing) KS:  Well, I wondered if you would be able to tell me about September 11th, 2001 and what you recall about that day and about your family’s experience, and in particular about Jim’s experience.   Because we know that he was a pilot and did fly over the crash site in just minutes after the crash on September 11th.  And if you can just tell me how your day began?

Mary:  Well, let’s see.  I’ll start the day, I’ll start from Sunday night, so that  would have been September the ninth.  Matt, my son was here and he wanted to fly the plane down to Roaring Spring, which is where he lives.   And so Jim said, “Well, sure, go ahead.”  And then he said, “Then Tuesday I’ll take your Mom down and we’ll take the plane back.”  So he flew down on Sunday night and then the next day his best friend from Colorado flew in and Jim picked him up at the airport and he spend the night.  That would have been September 10th.  So, September 11th, it was a beautiful day and the three of us got into our Jetta and we drove down to Roaring Spring, down to our son’s business.  And we went inside the business and his secretary was there and she said her husband just called said about the crash, you know, into the World Trade Center.  And we got the stories on that and we were standing there and, you know, we just couldn’t believe it.  It was just mind boggling that something like this could happen.  So, my husband and his friend, David Hay, decided that they needed our son to take them over to the landing strip where Matt had landed Sunday night and take the 150 back to Berlin.  So Matt got in, took them in the truck and took them over to the landing strip and they took off from there, which would have been about-

Matt:  Uh, the best recollection around 9:30.

Mary:  About 9:30.

KS:  Now this was Jim and his friend-

Mary: David Hay.

KS:  David Hay.

Mary: Yes, that lives in Colorado that had flown in to visit us.

KS:  And your plan was to drive the car?

Mary:  And my plan was to take care of my granddaughter, Elizabeth, that day and then drive home, you know, later on in the afternoon.  So I had the car and I’d bring the car home.  And, so Matt took them over to the landing strip and they took off around that time and they flew from Roaring Spring to Berlin.  So they would have been in the air from what?  9:30 to-

Matt:  Probably ten minutes or five minutes after ten, give or take.

KS:  How many air miles is it from Roaring Spring?

Matt:  Uh, twenty-three, twenty-three.

KS:  I just asked how many air miles it is from Roaring Spring to Berlin.

Mary: -to Berlin.

KS:  And Matt said twenty-three.

Matt:  Approximately twenty-three.

KS:  And how long of a flight is that?

Matt:  Uh.

KS:  I guess it varies.

Matt:  Yes, it varies.  But it’s approximately, and that airplane is a little bit slower, it’s approximately a thirty-minute flight from departure to arrival.

Mary:  So, they got in the plane, and like I said, it was a beautiful, sunny day.  So they took off and they didn’t need the radios on because it was so sunny and you could see for miles.  And they turned the radio off which, the radio would have been on Cleveland Center because our son, Matt, always had it on Cleveland Center when he flew.  So he had it on but they turned that off and they were talking about everything that happened.  What they heard about New York and what happened at the World Trade Center.  And you know, just talking about that and not really, you know, paying any attention.  It was just too sunny and they didn’t see any other planes and whatever.  But they just were having, you know, just talking about all that.  And they landed at North View Farm Airport, which would have been my husband’s farm.  And they landed there and, you know, parked the plane and went, started walking from the hanger up into the yard to get the truck to go home, to come here.   And my mother-in-law saw them and so she hollered out the door and said, “There’s been a plane crash in Shanksville.”  So, right away Jim thought, “Oh, my gosh, I got to go get